If I did not get confused regarding the time table, I do not think you can sign any relevant documents according to the Finnish law. A foetus isn't yet a child/person and in a legal sense it does not really have even a father, let alone agreements about custody/alimony/visitation rights. I think she maybe confused about the legal aspects as well.dutchguy wrote: I think she's going to get angry at me if I'm not going to sign some documents though
Rights as father for child internationally.
Re: Rights as father for child internationally.
Re: Rights as father for child internationally.
It is complicated.
As long as you haven't signed anything, you don't exist in the child's life. And the mother will have sole custody.
When you sign things (recognising the child as yours) a lot of subjects appear that should be addressed. (custody, visiting rights, child maintenance)
As soon as you have recognised the child it is also entitled to part of your inheritance. And since Dutch and Finnish laws differ on this point, it is wise to look into it before you sign. (arguments to postpone signing)
When the mother tries to keep you away from the child or threaten to do so if you don't sign, a new situation evolves.
Now you can demand a fatherhood test and arrangements for visiting rights and so on. If you have no criminal record or an indication of mental illness, there is no reason why you should be denied those rights.
But remember; getting the rights is one, getting an unwilling mother to cooperate is something completely different.
As long as you haven't signed anything, you don't exist in the child's life. And the mother will have sole custody.
When you sign things (recognising the child as yours) a lot of subjects appear that should be addressed. (custody, visiting rights, child maintenance)
As soon as you have recognised the child it is also entitled to part of your inheritance. And since Dutch and Finnish laws differ on this point, it is wise to look into it before you sign. (arguments to postpone signing)
When the mother tries to keep you away from the child or threaten to do so if you don't sign, a new situation evolves.
Now you can demand a fatherhood test and arrangements for visiting rights and so on. If you have no criminal record or an indication of mental illness, there is no reason why you should be denied those rights.
But remember; getting the rights is one, getting an unwilling mother to cooperate is something completely different.
Re: Rights as father for child internationally.
..maybe jumping into the legalities of how you can see your child at this stage is pushing on an open door in terms of giving her a sure sign that you're more keen to retreat and protect your rights as first priority, rather than to making sure the she's ok in the face of something that's actually quite scary.
She's about to lose the full use of her body, go through labour and birth (life threatening no matter where you are) and then go through the utter exhaustion of nursing a baby...and the main concern here is that you're personal rights are written down and legally defensible.
Dude, take a step back and ask yourself, do you want the legal right to see your child once in a blue moon or do you want to walk through the door each night and hear your child say "isi".
She's about to lose the full use of her body, go through labour and birth (life threatening no matter where you are) and then go through the utter exhaustion of nursing a baby...and the main concern here is that you're personal rights are written down and legally defensible.
Dude, take a step back and ask yourself, do you want the legal right to see your child once in a blue moon or do you want to walk through the door each night and hear your child say "isi".
Re: Rights as father for child internationally.
First of all thanks alot for the help given so far.
I want to walk through that door and see my child everyday off course, however if she does not wish to live together with me there isn't much I can do, I am being nice to her and I am not going to force any legalities or anything down her throat. She is going to call me on skype tonight to talk about things, I will just hear her out and she what she has to say and then I will most likely say that I need time to find out about that dutch law / finnish law thing etc, but will also tell her that I think we can just work this out together if we simply talk about things and have our own agreements.
I want to walk through that door and see my child everyday off course, however if she does not wish to live together with me there isn't much I can do, I am being nice to her and I am not going to force any legalities or anything down her throat. She is going to call me on skype tonight to talk about things, I will just hear her out and she what she has to say and then I will most likely say that I need time to find out about that dutch law / finnish law thing etc, but will also tell her that I think we can just work this out together if we simply talk about things and have our own agreements.
Re: Rights as father for child internationally.
I do not think this part is good advice. It should me remembered that recognizing the paternity is not only the proper and decent thing to do, it is of course something the mother could get done via courts even without the fathers co-operation. (I making here assumption that there is no real doubt of of the paternity - a recognized paternity can be asked to be annulled by a court within a two year period if doubts do arise).rinso wrote: As soon as you have recognised the child it is also entitled to part of your inheritance. And since Dutch and Finnish laws differ on this point, it is wise to look into it before you sign. (arguments to postpone signing)
What ever exactly gets decided, the mother will remain in far, far more stronger position in terms of law and in practice regarding the future of the child. If the 'dutchguy' wants to have a meaningful relationship with the child he should strive to keep in some level friendly or at minimum 'decent business relationship' terms with the mother, because without some level of voluntary co-operation from the mother it will not work. (he can hope for more, but with less than that things get nasty even if he had by then legally confirmed rights). (He does seem understand this quite well himself)
Having said that, hopefully it is understood by both parties that when anything is signed it is in their mutual interest that the papers are also legally valid, and that is probably easiest done by visiting the local authorities (helps of course if there is an existing informal consensus among them two on the visits and financial support - for the latter the officials must have some formula if you find it difficult to decide it on your own.). While I am not a lawyer, it seems quite straightforward reading of the legal text that everything begins with legally establishing (recognizing) the paternity (the other papers can be signed on later but not earlier date), and the law says that it can not be done before the child is actually born.
Re: Rights as father for child internationally.
We are talking about a situation where the mother wants to arrange things before the child in born and without giving the father enough time or information to determine his position (or his rights).I do not think this part is good advice.
It is perfectly normal to check things first before you sign documents you cannot fully understand. Certainly if you are confronted with differences in legislation.
From the attitude of Dutchguy I understand that he doesn't want to back out, but he does want to keep his chances alive for a meaningful relation with his child.
Re: Rights as father for child internationally.
dutchguy wrote:Thanks for the feedback, I would want to live together with her and get through the difficulties we have, but she said she doesn't want to as she finds me to immature, I agree she has more life experience then me but I also believe it is for a large part a cultural difference that makes her think I am immature. She said maybe things will get better in the future, but lately her behaviour hasn't really given me any hopes of that.
I'll try to postpone any decisions and talk with the dutch goverment to find out about the implications of any documents I might sign. I think she's going to get angry at me if I'm not going to sign some documents though, but ah well I gues I can handle some anger, after all the hormone imbalances I had to endure so far.
But doesn't she automatically get the sole-custody for the simple reason that I am living in a different country so the kid will live with her all the time? Or could there be some possibility for an agreement to put the child on an english school or finnish/english school so the child will learn english at a young age?
no she does not automatically get sole custody(if you do not go to court and show no interest she will have a good chance) but sole custody is almost impossible to get if the father is fighting for his rights as a parent. She will most likely be the primary caregiver and have the rigts to make important decisions and such(as medical, SCHOOLS etc.) if you do want your child to go to an english speaking school you do have a RIGHT to that if you get it in a custody order, even with joint custody there are so many things you are eligible for, I have heard of some fathers having joint custody, but little to no access, and still having rights to be a part of choosing schools and major medical decisions. It is depends on what you do, you MUST FIGHT for your rights.
I would highly advise you to speak to a lawyer before your next trip, and make sure you know your rights, have her send you the document she needs signed so you can have a family lawyer look over it before you sign. Or make sure you give time in Finland to consult one there(most will speak english and they will have more knowledge of that form) but make sure you consult one in your own Country also because the laws may differ from Finland.
Goodluck;)
Re: Rights as father for child internationally.
..or you could save the money on the lawyer, and buy the girl some roses (which I'm sure you've done already to celebrate - right?)
Go for the amnesia thing every time you see her (forget your own hurt), just love her for what she can be. When Dad loves Mum in a completely self-less way, the world begins to wobble a little less.
Go for the amnesia thing every time you see her (forget your own hurt), just love her for what she can be. When Dad loves Mum in a completely self-less way, the world begins to wobble a little less.
Re: Rights as father for child internationally.
Good advicecow-heada wrote:..or you could save the money on the lawyer, and buy the girl some roses (which I'm sure you've done already to celebrate - right?)
Go for the amnesia thing every time you see her (forget your own hurt), just love her for what she can be. When Dad loves Mum in a completely self-less way, the world begins to wobble a little less.
. Sorry for the long time no reply. I went to see her in Finland and things went ok, after a few days we were hugging again and back together, talked things trough so I thought it was going nicely. Then after being back in the Netherlands for about a week she broke up with me again, saying that she doesn't feel the ''passion'' with me, she loves me and is happy with me but misses that feeling of ''passion'' she has had with her previous boyfriends. I myself think it has to do with the pregnancy hormones, and the quitting of anti-depressant medicines she used to be on.Anyway I am currently totally stressed out but have to finish my final graduation thesis for school in these past 2 weeks. As a result my doctor has prescribed me Ritalin (ADHD medicines), and I am using this to help me with my school. She found out I'm using that and goes totally berserk, saying she doesn't want me to ever see the child when I'm on drugs. Now I know Ritalin is a derivative of speed and she has been addicted to speed herself in the past, but it is prescribed by the doctor and is helping me very much during these 2 weeks. She removed me as a friend from facebook and says she'll make sure I'll never get to see the baby. This just happened today so I hope everything will be fine but in case she insists on this attitude of not wanting to see or speak to me or see the baby I am wondering what course of action I should take.
Naturally I don't have any feelings for the child yet as it's not born yet, but everybody tells me that the moment you lay eyes on your baby for the first time everything changes and it'll be the person you love most in the whole world, this makes it very hard for me to organize my thoughts and think about what I should do.
Re: Rights as father for child internationally.
As a result my doctor has prescribed me Ritalin (ADHD medicines),
She found out I'm using that and goes totally berserk, saying she doesn't want me to ever see the child when I'm on drugs.
and she has been addicted to speed herself in the past,
and says she'll make sure I'll never get to see the baby.
This might complicate things. At least she can use this as an argument. So make sure you keep all the paperwork to prove the "innocent" use of it.rinso wrote: If you have no criminal record or an indication of mental illness, there is no reason why you should be denied those rights.
Re: Rights as father for child internationally.
Well, that "passion" was not enough to commit herself and make babies with them. In the end she broke up with them.Then after being back in the Netherlands for about a week she broke up with me again, saying that she doesn't feel the ''passion'' with me, she loves me and is happy with me but misses that feeling of ''passion'' she has had with her previous boyfriends.
Re: Rights as father for child internationally.
I do not have any criminal record or record of mental illness, I only got the Ritalin prescribed because I have a mild form of ADHD and with the many things running trough my mind currently it is very hard to concentrate on finishing my graduation project for university, for this I have gotten Ritalin prescribed on a one time basis to help me these last 2 weeks, as without it I would run the risk of failing my university and I will not let that happen as a result all the things that happened in my life lately.rinso wrote:As a result my doctor has prescribed me Ritalin (ADHD medicines),
She found out I'm using that and goes totally berserk, saying she doesn't want me to ever see the child when I'm on drugs.
and she has been addicted to speed herself in the past,
and says she'll make sure I'll never get to see the baby.This might complicate things. At least she can use this as an argument. So make sure you keep all the paperwork to prove the "innocent" use of it.rinso wrote: If you have no criminal record or an indication of mental illness, there is no reason why you should be denied those rights.
I will be sure to keep the package of the medicine as this has my name printed on it. She herself has/had annorexia and a history of drug use/abuse although she is clean now and is almost rid of the annorexia. I think with her having lost previous boyfriends to drugs she reacts so strongly to me taking ratalin as she''s afraid the same thing will happen, and I cannot seem to convince her this situation is different and that i solely use it as a medicine to help me trough a rough patch in my life under professional guidance of my doctor and psychologist. I hope that in a few weeks when my school is done and I am not needing the drug anymore she'll simply forget about it and things will be oke again. I also think it is largely her hormones playing a big role again making her react much stronger than usual, and knowing she's to proud to ever admit ''overreacting'' i hope in time shell simply act normal again and forget about it
. I love this girl and her strong own opinions but it can be very hard as well as she does not accept any decisions I make for my life that she wouldn't do herself. Ill keep you updated on how the situation progresses, thanks so far for the advice . I hope to finish my university next week and am going to Portugal for 2 weeks with my family to relax there and get things off my mind.Re: Rights as father for child internationally.
Remember if a case is presented to the officials for a decision, it is not about the actual truth, but how it it perceived by those officials. A lot of "he said, she said" will be ignored and they will go with their gut feeling.
Re: Rights as father for child internationally.
All right so the rabbit is out of the hole. I have now given up all hope of us ever getting back to normal. After not having spoken with her for a week, I came on skype today and was happy to see she was online, I said hi and she talked back! I was getting hopefull she saw that she overreacted about my prescribed-ritalin usage for the difficult period of school, unfortunately I was wrong as she said after that, I quote:
'''I also decided to have single custody so im going to ask permission from our country to have that, and that means also that every time you see our baby i have to be also there or one of my family members so baby is safe, if your under some drugs or something, im sorry for saying this but i just can''t trust you not using something or you to take care or look after baby if you have some concentration problems''.
After that the conversation continued about money issues, she basically said I should pay 2600 euro per year to her and in return could see the baby on moments she would allow me to. She also said she didn''t want to see me before the baby was born so discussing things face-to-face is also out of the question. I responded to her saying that off course I dont mind paying for our child as it is my child as well, but that I didn''t like the idea of her dictating when I could see the child or not very much either. She also said that if she would find out I would do any drugs she would never let me see the child every again, seeing how she reacted to my doctor prescribed ritalin I am afraid that something similiar would happen in the future and if I give her the full custody I basically never see our child anymore. The next issue I brought up was that if I was to study somewhere abroad I might not be able to pay the full 200 euros per month, and in a normal court arranged agreement someone with a too low income would not have to pay the amount for the time his income is too low, but she said that if that were to be the case I would never get to see the child again. All of these made me very worried about my future, as if I do sign away my rights I am basically at her mercy and she isn''t the most stable of persons.
She was getting angry for me bringing up all these different topics and said that I was an ashole for thinking those kind of things etc. I told her then that I saw 3 options: 1) Do it her way give her rights, pay every month the agreed sum she tells me to and visit ocasionally and hope she will teach the child english as she says she will (but this is very difficult if you are a native fin and single mother!!!). 2) Go to court to get shared rights, still let her take care of kid but have the guarantee of seeing the child and have child learn english, or 3) Not recognize child at all. She said that if I would go to court she would do abbortion as she still could for 3 weeks (shes about 5 months pregnant so i doubt that its possible, and I told her: you won't), or that she would just kill herself and the baby. (I don''t think she would really do this either but said: )
Currently I am not very seriously considering option 3 as that seems like the ashole way out of the problem, plus even though I dont feel any bond for that little girl inside my ex-girlfriend now, everybody who has a kid tells me the first moment you lay eyes on the kid you fall in love with it. because of this I dont want to make any binding decisions untill the child is actually born.
I am just very confused right now, I loved this girl to death and she just totally hates me, she said she told me a million times: I will try to love you but if I find out youre using drugs its over!, Obviously I didnt expect her to include a doctor prescribed medicine under this rule.... I still dream about her every night and am having a little depression cuz all I can think about are her and that child inside her....
I find it hard to make any decision on the matter and could really use some advice, she also said she has a lawyer in the family so if we go to court she will make sure i never get to see the baby, and that she will let the judge read the text about speed (it wasnt about speed, the text was in dutch and I said I was going to my doctor to discuss more Ritalin or possibly Dextra-Amphetamine, after which I got the ritalin). And that she would let the judge read my text messages about weed, (I used to smoke weed ocasionally before quitting a few months back because I am getting a daughter and I am from the Netherlands so obviouslly this is an accepted thing here as you probably know). I would just like to know what my options are and if its possible to get some kind of court agreement where it says I can see the child and possibly take it to netherlands for a holliday once the child is older and have the child attend an english school so I can actually communicate with her.
Thanks so much in advance for any help you could give me and for the help and support you have given me so far!
'''I also decided to have single custody so im going to ask permission from our country to have that, and that means also that every time you see our baby i have to be also there or one of my family members so baby is safe, if your under some drugs or something, im sorry for saying this but i just can''t trust you not using something or you to take care or look after baby if you have some concentration problems''.
After that the conversation continued about money issues, she basically said I should pay 2600 euro per year to her and in return could see the baby on moments she would allow me to. She also said she didn''t want to see me before the baby was born so discussing things face-to-face is also out of the question. I responded to her saying that off course I dont mind paying for our child as it is my child as well, but that I didn''t like the idea of her dictating when I could see the child or not very much either. She also said that if she would find out I would do any drugs she would never let me see the child every again, seeing how she reacted to my doctor prescribed ritalin I am afraid that something similiar would happen in the future and if I give her the full custody I basically never see our child anymore. The next issue I brought up was that if I was to study somewhere abroad I might not be able to pay the full 200 euros per month, and in a normal court arranged agreement someone with a too low income would not have to pay the amount for the time his income is too low, but she said that if that were to be the case I would never get to see the child again. All of these made me very worried about my future, as if I do sign away my rights I am basically at her mercy and she isn''t the most stable of persons.
She was getting angry for me bringing up all these different topics and said that I was an ashole for thinking those kind of things etc. I told her then that I saw 3 options: 1) Do it her way give her rights, pay every month the agreed sum she tells me to and visit ocasionally and hope she will teach the child english as she says she will (but this is very difficult if you are a native fin and single mother!!!). 2) Go to court to get shared rights, still let her take care of kid but have the guarantee of seeing the child and have child learn english, or 3) Not recognize child at all. She said that if I would go to court she would do abbortion as she still could for 3 weeks (shes about 5 months pregnant so i doubt that its possible, and I told her: you won't), or that she would just kill herself and the baby. (I don''t think she would really do this either but said: )
Currently I am not very seriously considering option 3 as that seems like the ashole way out of the problem, plus even though I dont feel any bond for that little girl inside my ex-girlfriend now, everybody who has a kid tells me the first moment you lay eyes on the kid you fall in love with it. because of this I dont want to make any binding decisions untill the child is actually born.
I am just very confused right now, I loved this girl to death and she just totally hates me, she said she told me a million times: I will try to love you but if I find out youre using drugs its over!, Obviously I didnt expect her to include a doctor prescribed medicine under this rule.... I still dream about her every night and am having a little depression cuz all I can think about are her and that child inside her....
I find it hard to make any decision on the matter and could really use some advice, she also said she has a lawyer in the family so if we go to court she will make sure i never get to see the baby, and that she will let the judge read the text about speed (it wasnt about speed, the text was in dutch and I said I was going to my doctor to discuss more Ritalin or possibly Dextra-Amphetamine, after which I got the ritalin). And that she would let the judge read my text messages about weed, (I used to smoke weed ocasionally before quitting a few months back because I am getting a daughter and I am from the Netherlands so obviouslly this is an accepted thing here as you probably know). I would just like to know what my options are and if its possible to get some kind of court agreement where it says I can see the child and possibly take it to netherlands for a holliday once the child is older and have the child attend an english school so I can actually communicate with her.
Thanks so much in advance for any help you could give me and for the help and support you have given me so far!
Re: Rights as father for child internationally.
option #1 gives her total control. she might continue to ask more and more if you give in.
option #3 is indeed a lousy way out. or not even that because she can demand you to be tested.
Leaves option #2 as the most logical solution.
It doesn't mean it has to go to court all the way. First a settlement is tried by a city mediator. They use the normal guidelines for these cases (also the basis for court decisions). If the parties cannot agree or there are complications, it could go to court.
Don't be intimidated by a family lawyer, they cannot chance the rules and deprive you of your rights. They can only try to convince a judge your a scumbag, but a proscribed medicine and some weed won't do the trick.
But don't make minor deals. Get the whole package on the table before you agree on anything.
http://www.telegraaf.nl/buitenland/7211 ... buitenland
option #3 is indeed a lousy way out. or not even that because she can demand you to be tested.
Leaves option #2 as the most logical solution.
It doesn't mean it has to go to court all the way. First a settlement is tried by a city mediator. They use the normal guidelines for these cases (also the basis for court decisions). If the parties cannot agree or there are complications, it could go to court.
Don't be intimidated by a family lawyer, they cannot chance the rules and deprive you of your rights. They can only try to convince a judge your a scumbag, but a proscribed medicine and some weed won't do the trick.
But don't make minor deals. Get the whole package on the table before you agree on anything.
And you see it has the right colourI dont want to make any binding decisions untill the child is actually born.
http://www.telegraaf.nl/buitenland/7211 ... buitenland