I have a 9 year old son who is relatively talented athletically, mainly in soccer and basketball. I'm from the USA, where everything to do with sports more or less revolves around their schools, more and more as the kids grow older. Here, things clearly don't work the same way, and I'm at a bit of a loss as to how I need to be thinking about things if he wants to pursue these sports as he grows older.
Right now he's participating in the local town soccer league. There is also the option of joining a winter indoor tournament league, which we will probably do this autumn. I have been coaching basketball myself, and am signing the team up for the league for his age group (mikrot). This is all well and good and I understand things this far. It's what happens in a few years that's confusing.
How do we go about determining if he's good enough to play for a better team than the local one where we live? He's the best on the local team for his age group now by a long shot, but that doesn't always translate as boys grow. Someone somewhere would have to evaluate him, no? And golly since we don't live right in Turku, isn't that going to mean a heck of a lot of commuting to practices and games? Basketball's somewhat easier since there's not such a large pool for the organizations to choose from anyways, and the boy's half american so it's in his blood. 'Nuff said. But that still means a heck of a lot of commuting. Do people in Finland who want their kids to have a good chance to compete in sports generally plan their lives, place of abode, employment, etc. around where the sports organizations have their facilities? This all seems very poorly planned. I'd think that it's no wonder Finland's soccer lags so far behind, but then I see the rest of Europe doing well with similar organizational structures, so what do I know...! Of course I could keep him in the local teams, but at some point the skill level of the players he plays with will determine how good he can personally become. Does anyone know when that point is (age)? In other words, how long should I think I can keep him in local leagues, and/or at what point, if he is still rather dominant, should I consider looking for a more challenging environment?
Anyways, if someone is reading who has had (older) kids in organized sports and can help me figure out what I'm doing, please send me a line. I live in Lieto and am thinking along the lines of TPS or Inter for football and KaarinanUra or Namika for basketball.
Regards,
Peter
please explain how sports for kids work in Finland!
Re: please explain how sports for kids work in Finland!
Yes you are right, sport is organised by the federations and the local sports clubs rather than by schools ( this is true all sports ice hockey, football, skating, athletics etc)
I don't know much about basketball but I have three boys, and two have played football (soccer) for several years. The younger one (b.1996) is still playing and is in a pretty good team so yes, this involves driving all over the place. We live in Espoo but last month I remember driving to Lahti and Porvoo in the same week. We have a 7-seater car so it made sense for me to do the long journeys with a full load of boys but usually we try and share the driving with other parents. As for training, we live about 7 kms from the A-Link stadium in Espoonkeskus which is where my son's team is training.
The big football clubs (eg Honka, TPS) have a system whereby the more talented players move into the "edarit" teams. I think the selection process varies from one club to another. Honka sometimes publishes invitations to selection games on its webpages but in my experience it was more about the coaches working together and communicating within the clubs. It's all a bit informal and messy and there have been issues with parents getting "over" involved which has even reached the national newspapers!!! I remember one coach sacking some kids from his edarit team by sending them an email along the lines of "you don't need to come and train any more"...
One thing you can do is contact an "older" club and get your son playing in a team which is one year older than he is. He can even play in two teams at the same time I believe (federation allows this). My '92 was playing in a '91 team from time to time. It's good experience and the more matches and tournaments your son plays in, the more likely he is to get noticed. But, Finland has (very strict?) fair play rules which means that in the younger teams the kids are all given equal play time on the pitch. You won't change that.
My advice would be to talk to your son's coach and/or email the TPS edarit coach for your son's age group and get their advice.
As for choosing between Inter and TPS you need to talk (PM) to TampereOwl. He knows....
I don't know much about basketball but I have three boys, and two have played football (soccer) for several years. The younger one (b.1996) is still playing and is in a pretty good team so yes, this involves driving all over the place. We live in Espoo but last month I remember driving to Lahti and Porvoo in the same week. We have a 7-seater car so it made sense for me to do the long journeys with a full load of boys but usually we try and share the driving with other parents. As for training, we live about 7 kms from the A-Link stadium in Espoonkeskus which is where my son's team is training.
The big football clubs (eg Honka, TPS) have a system whereby the more talented players move into the "edarit" teams. I think the selection process varies from one club to another. Honka sometimes publishes invitations to selection games on its webpages but in my experience it was more about the coaches working together and communicating within the clubs. It's all a bit informal and messy and there have been issues with parents getting "over" involved which has even reached the national newspapers!!! I remember one coach sacking some kids from his edarit team by sending them an email along the lines of "you don't need to come and train any more"...
One thing you can do is contact an "older" club and get your son playing in a team which is one year older than he is. He can even play in two teams at the same time I believe (federation allows this). My '92 was playing in a '91 team from time to time. It's good experience and the more matches and tournaments your son plays in, the more likely he is to get noticed. But, Finland has (very strict?) fair play rules which means that in the younger teams the kids are all given equal play time on the pitch. You won't change that.
My advice would be to talk to your son's coach and/or email the TPS edarit coach for your son's age group and get their advice.
As for choosing between Inter and TPS you need to talk (PM) to TampereOwl. He knows....
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Mölkky-Fan
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Re: please explain how sports for kids work in Finland!
zlingen wrote: and the boy's half american so it's in his blood. 'Nuff said.
If this was true, and sporting prowess was somehow related to the bloodline of the inventing country then Brits would be world champions at cricket, golf, football, badminton, field hockey, rugby league, rugby union, table tennis, darts, snooker, bobsleigh etcThe truth is that I have to sit there cringing as we are beaten by Bangladesh in cricket, grab a lucky draw with USA in football, etc etc
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.
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zlingen
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Re: please explain how sports for kids work in Finland!
. OK, you're right, I admit it. Got a little carried away with that comment...-
zlingen
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Re: please explain how sports for kids work in Finland!
...and thanks Penelope for your post! I feel like I don't understand a thing without this sort of help, and it's my son who suffers! He's only 9, so it's not so urgent yet anyways, but now's the time to try to get a handle on all of this!
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Pursuivant
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Re: please explain how sports for kids work in Finland!
Its usually the parents that are more worked up and troubled than the kids. Try this for your coaching aspirations: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=46815&start=0m 
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."
Something wicked this way comes."
Re: please explain how sports for kids work in Finland!
I fully appreciate your aspirations, zlingen, and have been down the same road fifteen or so years ago. One caveat (apart from being a taxi-driver racking up the kms) with looking at a "good" team not so close at hand is that at least for a while - until the kids are a good deal older than nine - there IS also a social dimension to it, and in many cases kids in a local team are also friends off the pitch. Naturally similar friendships will develop in another team, but they will not necessarily be so easy to maintain at a longer distance (and may involve you in ferrying the kid(s) to friends' houses as well as to practices & matches).
There is also a certain amount of debate about the wisdom of some aspects of the "edustusjoukkue" approach - I'm out of the loop these days, but do recall that the drop-out rate from "high-achiever" teams (particularly those who had won a good deal by the time they hit 14 and discovered wimmin, cigarettes, and mopeds and the demon alcohol) were quite high. Penelope will doubtless rebut the claims, but I remember with grim satisfaction that my son's team, which had been regularly and humiliatingly crushed by their hotshot contemporaries in Honka for years on end, finally turned the tables and whipped them bigtime when they reached the C or B-juniors level, simply because they had stayed together as a unit, while the Honka lot self-destructed, presumably because many "had had enough" by then and burned themselves out. It's a tricky balancing act.
Getting kids to train on after adolescence bites is a tough one - many have argued that Finland "takes it too seriously" too soon: our kids would always laugh mockingly at the Swedish sides who came to the Helsinki Cup and reported that they normally played to modified rules - they even did stuff like dropping the offside rule. Our lot thought they were pansies, but Sweden definitely had much stronger teams in those days at the U-16 and U-17 level, simply because the players were still motivated and enjoying it.
In our case, golf won out at 16. Still, not a bad combination - six or seven years of a team sport and then one in which you can interact with adults (and thrash them soundly) and be treated like an adult and not like just another pesky teenager.
There is also a certain amount of debate about the wisdom of some aspects of the "edustusjoukkue" approach - I'm out of the loop these days, but do recall that the drop-out rate from "high-achiever" teams (particularly those who had won a good deal by the time they hit 14 and discovered wimmin, cigarettes, and mopeds and the demon alcohol) were quite high. Penelope will doubtless rebut the claims, but I remember with grim satisfaction that my son's team, which had been regularly and humiliatingly crushed by their hotshot contemporaries in Honka for years on end, finally turned the tables and whipped them bigtime when they reached the C or B-juniors level, simply because they had stayed together as a unit, while the Honka lot self-destructed, presumably because many "had had enough" by then and burned themselves out. It's a tricky balancing act.
Getting kids to train on after adolescence bites is a tough one - many have argued that Finland "takes it too seriously" too soon: our kids would always laugh mockingly at the Swedish sides who came to the Helsinki Cup and reported that they normally played to modified rules - they even did stuff like dropping the offside rule. Our lot thought they were pansies, but Sweden definitely had much stronger teams in those days at the U-16 and U-17 level, simply because the players were still motivated and enjoying it.
In our case, golf won out at 16. Still, not a bad combination - six or seven years of a team sport and then one in which you can interact with adults (and thrash them soundly) and be treated like an adult and not like just another pesky teenager.
Re: please explain how sports for kids work in Finland!
I don't rebut that. It is certainly difficult getting them to continue well into adolescence. There is a really difficult stage to get through around 16 yrs. If I remember correctly there is no U16 league so the 15 year olds find themselves being (literally) thrashed by 17 year olds week in, week out. As you point out, that lasts for a year or so but the solid teams carry on (often because their parents have by then formed an equally solid support group) despite the thrashings and often play to infinity and beyond.
As a parent it was fascinating to see how the boys developed. I saw one rather tubby roly-poly guy who could hardly run and was usually dumped somewhere at the back, turn into really good midfield player, and he still plays today. My own son improved hugely from being a distracted and rather clueless defender (with a fantastic throw, which is probably one of the reasons he got onto the field to play in the matches) to actually scoring some goals (in fact I think he scored in the last game his team ever played!). He was lucky to be in a great team with a real team spirit and a fab group of supporting parents. Not all the teams are like that.
We never got involved in the top notch leagues but obviously we knew boys who had "gone on" to the edarit teams and played at that level. There seemed to be a bunch of issues at that level and you are right about the burn-out. The edarit teams seem to implode, there are very few teams playing in U17 at Hesa Cup (hundreds at the U9 level). It could be due to the sheer geography of playing competitive football in such a large and sparsely populated country. It could be due to the economics (it costs a lot) or the fact that getting a good grade point average for lukio entry takes priority.
Anyway, I only know Honka (which by the way has a mix of serious and fun teams - something for everyone). But I would tend to agree that the system takes it too seriously and it is a big shame that the municipalities don't organise competitive sports within the school system. Not all kids can afford to play in club football, so they are automatically excluded from playing the sport. That can't be a good thing for Finnish football.
And then there's ice hockey...
As a parent it was fascinating to see how the boys developed. I saw one rather tubby roly-poly guy who could hardly run and was usually dumped somewhere at the back, turn into really good midfield player, and he still plays today. My own son improved hugely from being a distracted and rather clueless defender (with a fantastic throw, which is probably one of the reasons he got onto the field to play in the matches) to actually scoring some goals (in fact I think he scored in the last game his team ever played!). He was lucky to be in a great team with a real team spirit and a fab group of supporting parents. Not all the teams are like that.
We never got involved in the top notch leagues but obviously we knew boys who had "gone on" to the edarit teams and played at that level. There seemed to be a bunch of issues at that level and you are right about the burn-out. The edarit teams seem to implode, there are very few teams playing in U17 at Hesa Cup (hundreds at the U9 level). It could be due to the sheer geography of playing competitive football in such a large and sparsely populated country. It could be due to the economics (it costs a lot) or the fact that getting a good grade point average for lukio entry takes priority.
Anyway, I only know Honka (which by the way has a mix of serious and fun teams - something for everyone). But I would tend to agree that the system takes it too seriously and it is a big shame that the municipalities don't organise competitive sports within the school system. Not all kids can afford to play in club football, so they are automatically excluded from playing the sport. That can't be a good thing for Finnish football.
And then there's ice hockey...
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zlingen
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Re: please explain how sports for kids work in Finland!
I've felt the same about Finnish sports ever since staring to take a serious look at how it works with my son growing up. I find it hard to understand why they make it cost so much to participate. It's not wonder they have trouble competing internationally. I've seen some articles supporting the fact that in international football, poorer countries perform better than richer ones, and in my own experience in the USA, it was traditionally poorer inner-city basketball players who were the best. One rarely finds a "rich kid" who can perform at the highest levels in american sports (traditionally), although professional athletes' own children seem to force a debate on that issue. Of course, it's ironic that in the US, sports are free but a good education is expensive! Maybe Finland has their priorities straight...
I'll keep my own son playing locally as long as possible. From the discussion below, I come to the conclusion that if I had started him out in one of the bigger teams, and if he already had good friends there, then it would make sense to keep him there. But since most of his friends will stay local, he probably will too. IF some of his friends make the jump to TPS or FC Inter, I could see doing the same since the camaraderie would be maintained (and we'd also have carpooling options). Have to wait and see. I'll pay the big bucks if he's doing well and still loves it. Right now he does, and I know I sure did all the way through high school.
Interesting to read about it being difficult to get them to continue. I never, ever felt that in the US. I loved to play sports and never wanted to stop. Is the problem that it becomes too serious / stressful at around that time?
I'll keep my own son playing locally as long as possible. From the discussion below, I come to the conclusion that if I had started him out in one of the bigger teams, and if he already had good friends there, then it would make sense to keep him there. But since most of his friends will stay local, he probably will too. IF some of his friends make the jump to TPS or FC Inter, I could see doing the same since the camaraderie would be maintained (and we'd also have carpooling options). Have to wait and see. I'll pay the big bucks if he's doing well and still loves it. Right now he does, and I know I sure did all the way through high school.
Interesting to read about it being difficult to get them to continue. I never, ever felt that in the US. I loved to play sports and never wanted to stop. Is the problem that it becomes too serious / stressful at around that time?
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Mölkky-Fan
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Re: please explain how sports for kids work in Finland!
But remember that Finland does pretty well in its national sport of ice hockey despite being a small country. Basketball or football are not national sports, and the weather is not really so good for football (I was a coach for 2 years of a team in Vantaa). Just check out the ice hockey world championships record 10 medals in 18 years (and in the Olympics in the last 7 they have got 3 bronzes and 2 silvers)... and US, Canada, Russia, Sweden, Czech Republic all play there and are much bigger than Finland.zlingen wrote: It's not wonder they have trouble competing internationally.
1992 Prague / Bratislava, Czechoslovakia Won silver medal
1994 Bolzano / Canazei / Milano, Italy Won silver medal
1995 Stockholm / Gävle, Sweden Won gold medal (roster)
1998 Zürich / Basel, Switzerland Won silver medal
1999 Oslo / Lillehammer / Hamar, Norway Won silver medal
2000 Saint Petersburg, Russia Won bronze medal
2001 Cologne / Hanover / Nuremberg, Germany Won silver medal
2006 Riga, Latvia Won bronze medal
2007 Moscow / Mytishchi, Russia Won silver medal
2008 Quebec City / Halifax, Canada Won bronze medal
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.
Re: please explain how sports for kids work in Finland!
The interesting thing about US sports, which are organised within the schooling system, is that if you look at all the best teams they are full of kids born in January, February, March (and maybe April) but the kids born at the end of the year never stand a chance as they are too small to get noticed when they are competing at a junior level. I read that in a book recently: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Outliers-Story- ... 383&sr=8-1 quite astonishing statistics.
Re: please explain how sports for kids work in Finland!
penelope wrote:The interesting thing about US sports, which are organised within the schooling system, is that if you look at all the best teams they are full of kids born in January, February, March (and maybe April) but the kids born at the end of the year never stand a chance as they are too small to get noticed when they are competing at a junior level. I read that in a book recently: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Outliers-Story- ... 383&sr=8-1 quite astonishing statistics.
there has been talk in Canada of making 2 teams for the same year, one for kids born in the first six months and one for the kids born in the second six months of the year... Hopefully they do it so all kids can have an equal shot not just the ones born in the first few months...
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zlingen
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Re: please explain how sports for kids work in Finland!
Are you suggesting that ice hockey and winter sports are the only possible national sports? I think kids are nuts about football, far more than hockey, but yet by the time they reach adolescence... nothing? At least in the Turku area right now I'd have to guess that there are 5-10 kids elementary school kids playing football for every 1 playing (organized) hockey. Is it a correct assumption that 80 percent of the kids playing football drop out when they move on to ylä-aste, when it starts to cost big money, and that the kids starting with hockey now stick with it since it's expensive from the get-go?
... my son was born in january, so I guess he's got a shot!
by the way, I think I'm going to sign off from this thread since it's starting to take off into unintended directions. I by no means intended to make any serious criticism of the way things are done here, since I won't probably ever fully understand why it's done the way it's done nor how it got started and/or ended up this way. It may or may not be possible to make comments about how things could be improved, but most likely I'd end up looking the fool for having done so. Thanks for all the help, I feel like I have a decent handle on how to progress for the next few years with my son's sports, which I didn't a week ago. After that his love for the games and a whole lot of other factors will determine where he ends up, and I'll be happy to follow him around marvelling at how much better he is that I ever was!
... my son was born in january, so I guess he's got a shot!
by the way, I think I'm going to sign off from this thread since it's starting to take off into unintended directions. I by no means intended to make any serious criticism of the way things are done here, since I won't probably ever fully understand why it's done the way it's done nor how it got started and/or ended up this way. It may or may not be possible to make comments about how things could be improved, but most likely I'd end up looking the fool for having done so. Thanks for all the help, I feel like I have a decent handle on how to progress for the next few years with my son's sports, which I didn't a week ago. After that his love for the games and a whole lot of other factors will determine where he ends up, and I'll be happy to follow him around marvelling at how much better he is that I ever was!
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Mölkky-Fan
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Re: please explain how sports for kids work in Finland!
Of course not, during summer there is wife carrying, swamp football, phone throwing and welly throwing... football is just far to sensiblezlingen wrote:Are you suggesting that ice hockey and winter sports are the only possible national sports?
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.
Re: please explain how sports for kids work in Finland!
Kids kick ball all around during summer, because you can be outdoors and having fun.zlingen wrote:Are you suggesting that ice hockey and winter sports are the only possible national sports? I think kids are nuts about football, far more than hockey, but yet by the time they reach adolescence... nothing? At least in the Turku area right now I'd have to guess that there are 5-10 kids elementary school kids playing football for every 1 playing (organized) hockey. Is it a correct assumption that 80 percent of the kids playing football drop out when they move on to ylä-aste, when it starts to cost big money, and that the kids starting with hockey now stick with it since it's expensive from the get-go?
It is for fun.
Once you start thinking competitively, you have to figure out that Finland just has too short summer for football.
Thus, enter hockey. And in general games which can be played when ground is frozen or else weather is less than inviting outside.
By the way, to answer question on why everything costs so much from the start.
Parents of juniors, ask yourselves... Where does the money come to pay expenses of "Edustusjoukkue"? Definitely not from THEIR purses (quite the opposite).
Then ask yourselves, how much sponsor money you think your club pulls in every year....
Now you know why everything costs so much.