Why did Rauno Keltanen stop recording?

[tuulen]

Equal Temperament tuning made the Classical era possible, but my ears prefer Just Intonation tuning.

Cor, I don't think I really could hear the difference... I mean I can usually hear when an instrument is out of tune in the wrong way (strictly speaking a "well-tampered clavier" is ever so slightly out of tune, but equally out of tune in all keys - isn't that so?)...

But I don't think I'd be able to detect such intricate details. Do you additionally have "perfect pitch" btw? (absoluuttinen sävelkorva)

Yes, as the joke goes, there is no such thing as a piano which is in tune.

J.S. Bach wrote The Well-Tempered Clavier (although the title of that book was originally in German), but work on that topic had actually been going on for a few hundred years before Bach put the final touches on it. The tuning troubles began with the development of early musical instruments, which both individually and collectively could far exceed the range(s) of the human voice, and eventually Equal Temperament tuning (also known as "piano" tuning) was adopted as a compromise, without which there could be no such thing as an orchestra.

Music of the Baroque era sounds sweet, harmonically pure, and with thanks to Just Intonation, but that is contrary as to how a piano is tuned.

[sammy]

Music of the Baroque era sounds sweet, harmonically pure, and with thanks to Just Intonation, but that is contrary as to how a piano is tuned.

I'd assume though that you mean music of the Baroque era performed with "authentic instruments/tuning" as the saying goes - isn't it also a question of performance practice, rather than an attribute of Baroque music itself? I've got quite a few Baroque albums by the English Concert & Musica Antiqua Köln (Handel, Bach, Corelli etc); I rather like the sound of the early/period instruments - but couldn't say if it's a question of tuning - or just smaller ensembles and the timbres of the old instruments themselves... the Brandenburg concertos for example sound very different if performed by the Berliner Philharmoniker or some other big modern orchestra, compared to "period instrument versions" that usually are played by a far smaller ensemble... go figure.

[tuulen]

Music of the Baroque era sounds sweet, harmonically pure, and with thanks to Just Intonation, but that is contrary as to how a piano is tuned.

I'd assume though that you mean music of the Baroque era performed with "authentic instruments/tuning" as the saying goes - isn't it also a question of performance practice, rather than an attribute of Baroque music itself? I've got quite a few Baroque albums by the English Concert & Musica Antiqua Köln (Handel, Bach, Corelli etc); I rather like the sound of the early/period instruments - but couldn't say if it's a question of tuning - or just smaller ensembles and the timbres of the old instruments themselves... go figure.

The history of Western Art Music can be traced back to about the 12th century. The Roman Catholic Church was primary in the development of Western music, but the RCC forbade instrumental music, as being the voice of the Devil, and accepted the human voice as being closest to the voice of God. That meant that all RCC sponsored music was limited to the range(s) of the human voice. Yet, those contemptible musicians could not leave well enough alone, and so a number of musical instruments became developed, too. Some of those early instruments had a "high" pitch, and some of them had a "low" pitch, but it became discovered that any two such dissimilar instruments could sound "sour" when played together, and a resolution to that "sourness" issue then went on for a few hundred years, until Bach found a "well-tempered" solution.

The original tuning is now known as Just Intonation, and the later tuning "solution" is known as Equal Temperament. Some modern instruments can play in either one of those tunings, most notably the "winds" and the "strings", such as flutes and violins, instruments which are capable of "bending" their tuning to suit whichever mode they could prefer to play in. Hence, antique Baroque music can quite successfully be played on modern instruments. Then again, there are those who insist on performing such antique music on "period" instruments, too.

[sammy]

Tuulen, I quite see what you mean - trust the RCC to ban all things that are enjoyable I just can't hear any tuning difference between Baroque music and later works, say, Beethoven or Bartok string quartets (which are performed on stringed instruments only and which -if I'm not wrong- therefore could also be played using just intonation? Are they? Or maybe it's more tricky in music that might go through several key changes? I have no idea, I told you I can't hear the difference even if it is there )

I'm trying to ask, I guess, whether Beethoven, Brahms and Bartok string quartets are by definition "less harmonically pure" from an intonation point of view than some Baroque music... not that it matters to me in way of enjoyment, but it's an interesting question IMO

[AldenG]

I'm a little surprised these didn't end up on bis or Ondine, though timing may have had a lot to do with it. He recorded the 2nd one on the tail end of the analog era and at the time there wasn't much interest in putting such recordings on CD. Bis even liked to put warnings on their CDs about the hazardous dynamic range of the new medium. Also if Keltanen wanted to focus on hymn-like material, then niche marketing with a private label may have been the right way to go. Unfortunately it has caused the non-religious items in the catalog to languish. He never had a realistic prospect to compete with the above-mentioned labels or others for general distribution.

I wonder what it would take to get them picked up by a label that does re-issues. I don't know how that works in Finland (or elsewhere, for that matter). It would be shame for them to completely disappear and I'm sure he and Gothoni would agree with that statement if nothing else. You ought to be able to download that album off Amazon for $4. Or even $8. It's not a lot but it's infinitely better than zero receipts. For that matter, if they no longer think it has a future, why not release it to the public domain?

I got curious and pulled a recording of Melartin's 5th (1916) and 6th (1925) symphonies off the shelf. (I knew I probably had one like it somewhere.) I've been listening to them for the last hour, and if you didn't tell me what I was listening to, I would have been pretty sure it was a medley of Hollywood horse opera soundtracks. The liner notes say he was influenced by Mahler and I guess you could say that -- to a comparable extent that Hollywood soundtracks 25-40 years later were influenced by Mahler. But there's more horse than Mahler in the 5th and 6th, I have to note with regret. So I would guess that it is more in smaller forms that Melartin's own legacy consists.

[Jukka Aho]

no-one's interested [in classical music] anyway in these spotifying times.

Wrong dichotomy, Spotify has a gigantic amount of classical music in their catalog.

That I do believe, but why is it then I've never ever heard/seen anyone say "I listened to Fauré cello sonatas on Spotify" :wink:

Not sure, maybe you hang out with the wrong kind of people? ;)

See here for some featured classical Spotify playlists (especially the first link is quite good):

• http://www.spotifyclassical.com/
• http://sharemyplaylists.com/playlists/classical
• http://www.spotyshare.com/spotify-playl ... classical/

[sammy]

no-one's interested [in classical music] anyway in these spotifying times.

That I do believe, but why is it then I've never ever heard/seen anyone say "I listened to Fauré cello sonatas on Spotify"

Not sure, maybe you hang out with the wrong kind of people?

See here for some featured classical Spotify playlists (especially the first link is quite good):

• http://www.spotifyclassical.com/
• http://sharemyplaylists.com/playlists/classical
• http://www.spotyshare.com/spotify-playl ... classical/

Nah, I don't think it's so much a question of who my friends are - although admittedly few of them share my musical tastes... I just can't somehow find any reason to start listening to music on-line, through Spotify or any other such thingy... maybe I'm somewhat prejudiced and even plain wrong with my earlier remark on Spotify, but... the whole thing just not does not seem to appeal to me. I rather like fiddling with physical albums, going to record stores, cover/booklet art, all that. Silly perhaps but there you have it...

Interestingly enough, the blogger of that first link has this to say on the right-hand margin commentary:

Recently I started to use the instant online streaming music service Spotify, it has a huge classical library, but it seems that very few people listen to classical on it.

[sammy]

I'm a little surprised these didn't end up on bis or Ondine, though timing may have had a lot to do with it. He recorded the 2nd one on the tail end of the analog era and at the time there wasn't much interest in putting such recordings on CD. Bis even liked to put warnings on their CDs about the hazardous dynamic range of the new medium. Also if Keltanen wanted to focus on hymn-like material, then niche marketing with a private label may have been the right way to go. Unfortunately it has caused the non-religious items in the catalog to languish. He never had a realistic prospect to compete with the above-mentioned labels or others for general distribution.

I wonder what it would take to get them picked up by a label that does re-issues. I don't know how that works in Finland (or elsewhere, for that matter). It would be shame for them to completely disappear and I'm sure he and Gothoni would agree with that statement if nothing else. You ought to be able to download that album off Amazon for $4. Or even $8. It's not a lot but it's infinitely better than zero receipts. For that matter, if they no longer think it has a future, why not release it to the public domain?

One question is, whether the original tapes/recordings still exist... and who owns the copyrights. Ondine and BIS (the latter is a Swedish one isn't it?) are relatively big labels (yes I remember those dynamic range warnings - some other labels used to have them, too - Telarc at least IIRC ), although definitely not so if you compare them with DG et al... it seems that Warner has swallowed Finlandia Records... I'd presume however that there still are small labels that could potentially be interested in publishing stuff like this (Alba... even Fuga themselves publish records: http://www.fuga.fi/levytuotanto.html ... 50/50 records, which seem to have a lot of historical recordings http://www.fiftyrecords.com/ ? ... who knows)

I don't know how exactly how it works to propose such reissues, but it's more than likely that demand would be one of the factors involved

[AldenG]

I can certainly see that demand would be small. However, I'm starting to wonder if these may be some of Melartin's best work, and I don't think there are any other recordings of them. If there's occasional demand to buy the symphonies, you'd think there might be some demand for these if they were available -- especially if one could get an online article published somewhere about them.

It's really depressing to hear that Finlandia got gobbled up. When I try to list all Finlandia issues on the Warner website, I get 62, and some of the best albums they put out are missing. Almost all their Finnish stuff is missing. These fat multinationals just buy stuff up and then sit on it, not even aware of what they own. There is something really ill in IP capitalism these days. The times ought to be enabling niche markets, but instead in many cases they are killing off valuable cultural artifacts. Apparently Warner can't be bothered with issues that sell below a certain threshold -- even though the inherent character of technology today is that it ought to be making it easier for such items to survive or even to thrive, not more difficult.

Finland and the EU are having all these arguments about multiculturalism when they really ought to be putting that energy into arguing about global corporatism. It is a far more dangerous threat to local values and ways of life.

[tuulen]

Tuulen, I quite see what you mean - trust the RCC to ban all things that are enjoyable I just can't hear any tuning difference between Baroque music and later works, say, Beethoven or Bartok string quartets (which are performed on stringed instruments only and which -if I'm not wrong- therefore could also be played using just intonation? Are they? Or maybe it's more tricky in music that might go through several key changes? I have no idea, I told you I can't hear the difference even if it is there )

I'm trying to ask, I guess, whether Beethoven, Brahms and Bartok string quartets are by definition "less harmonically pure" from an intonation point of view than some Baroque music... not that it matters to me in way of enjoyment, but it's an interesting question IMO

Actually, the RCC knew a good thing when they heard it. Choral singing as performed in the tuning which we today know as Just Intonation can be hauntingly beautiful music, and apparently the RCC recognized that particular, outstanding quality. Its assertion that instrumental music could be the voice of the Devil was partly true, so to speak, and that is why it took a few hundred years to develop a system of tuning, Equal Temperament, which could allow a diverse range of instruments to play together. Yet, ET does have its faults, and another name for Equal Temperament is Equal Tamperament (as the scales of music could be so disastrously tampered with).

Warning: If you cannot now hear the slight but notable differences between JI and ET tunings, then perhaps you are better off to not explore those differences any further, and that way you will not be disappointed, not now and not in the future. Count your blessings! I am serious. Some people HATE the ET system of tuning, and, for them, listening to any ET music is like eating cardboard for dinner. Yuck!

You need not become a musician, but perhaps only first-hand experience at singing or at playing certain instruments could make the tuning differences between JI and ET come alive. In the beginning, there were no musical scales as we know them today, and "modal" tuning was all that was known, that which we today call JI. A modern violin, for instance, can play in modal tuning. Then, using that same violin, play modern ET scales, and there begins your introduction to the Circle of Fifths. A modern violin can play that, too. Moreover, in time your ears will become acutely aware of the tuning differences between JI and ET, but once you cross that bridge then you can never go back.

You have been warned!

[AldenG]

Just intonation mostly becomes an issue when an instrument with fixed pitches is tuned to a certain key.

In non-percussion/keyboard ensemble music today, chords tend to be in near-perfect intonation to themselves, i.e. just intonation, because that's what a keen ear craves and at least modern non-percussion/keyboard instruments give enough latitude to adjust pitch according to context. Musicians do it by reflex. They think of it as "playing in tune" -- nothing more arcane or remarkable than that. Playing a G7 that resolves to C would attract no special attention. It simply sounds correct. And normally, playing an E7 resolving to A or an F#7 resolving to B would sound just as correct.

However, that changes if you have a keyboard or other fixed-tuning instrument tuned to C. I can assure you that most any music lover would peg the E7-A and the F#7-B as distinctly out of tune on a piano with good tone quality tuned to just intonation. It wouldn't require special training or acumen. The G7-C would sound in tune but the third (the B) at the top of the G7 might seem to lack an accustomed brilliance because it would be a few cents flatter. To play string and wind ensemble music to sound that way would require exceptional effort and ability. Recorders (block flutes) don't have the pitch latitude of modern flutes but most of the other instrumentalists would have to make a deliberate effort to overcome their reflexes and play "out of tune" on purpose.

Some of the modern "electric pianos" give you a choice of scales and tuning. Yamaha is one where I've seen and played with this feature in stores. If you play a little piano it's not hard to get get a taste of the difference and to hear the notorious "wolf tone." The tone quality isn't the best for appreciating subtleties of tuning but you can get the idea. The wolf tone is however at its best (that is to say, worst) on an organ.

[sammy]

Thanks tuulen and AldenG,

Hmm, most of what you wrote was familiar to me in the sense that I've read about the tunings, the history of scales etc - perhaps luckily I'm cloth-eared enough not to actually have detected/heard the difference since I'm quite sure my record collection includes examples of both exhibits A and B... then again, I *might* be able to hear the difference in a suitable context, like on a keyboard fixed to JI, who knows. I've never tried. Anyway, certainly I have not consciously detected any tuning system differences during "normal" listening. And I'm certainly not a musician in the strict sense of the word, I've merely dabbled with guitar, bass and lately also mandolin a bit.

But it still makes me wonder a bit whether "modern" music - as long as it does not involve keyboards etc - is in itself less "harmonically pure" than the music of Baroque era. AldenG's answer seems to hint that this is not the case, whereas tuulen just subtly avoided the question Tuulen, does it make you cringe to listen to Brahms or Bartok string quartets for example, I mean tuning-wise?

(btw I can't remember just now if the latter include quartertones -which are a slightly different matter- but at least Bartok's second violin concerto does: they definitely do sound "weird" but not unpleasantly so)

[sammy]

Actually, the RCC knew a good thing when they heard it. Choral singing as performed in the tuning which we today know as Just Intonation can be hauntingly beautiful music, and apparently the RCC recognized that particular, outstanding quality. Its assertion that instrumental music could be the voice of the Devil was partly true, so to speak

Possibly, but then again I'm inclined to suspect that it was -at least to some extent- also because instruments and instrumental music reminded them of taverns, merry-making and fornication, and surely there was no place in the church for that sort of thing.

How about dissonance, then? Can you hear a difference between deliberate dissonance (say, tritonus - another favourite of the church I'm sure) in different tunings? You probably would, to me it's a purely academic question - I'm just curious even if I (luckily?) fail to hear the blasted nuances

I do like medieval/renaissance vocal music btw. Ockeghem, Josquin, Tallis, Taverner, what have you. I also have some Palestrina but to be honest his music appears a bit too perfect, harmonic and "polished" to me - perhaps that is heavenly, but ever so often reminds me of the last part (Paradise) of Dante's Divine Comedy - such an utterly boring yarn, with all the jarring edges removed.

Then again, while this is one of my favourite vocal ensemble records, Gesualdo can get a bit too thorny at times.



The Lamentations of Jeremiah by Tallis, or Ockeghem's "Fors seulement" (an amazing performance of the latter can be found on the below album) are perhaps my favs

[tuulen]

...But it still makes me wonder a bit whether "modern" music - as long as it does not involve keyboards etc - is in itself less "harmonically pure" than the music of Baroque era. AldenG's answer seems to hint that this is not the case, whereas tuulen just subtly avoided the question ...

Intuitively, I know the differences between modes (JI) and scales (ET), but perhaps an explanation of those differences could qualify as a doctoral thesis, and could shed some light as to why it took at least a few hundred years of experimentation to develop Equal Temperament.

In short, there simply is no easy, short or simple explanation. Therefore, let me not attempt any such explanation, here.

However, you probably already know the differences between JI and ET, but might not be aware of what you already know. To heighten your awareness, it is necessary to focus your musical ear. That can be done by a steady diet of listening to music performed ONLY in Just Intonation, and fortunately there are many examples of that system of tuning available on the Internet. Virtually all of the Baroque era, anything prior to the Baroque era, and many kinds of traditional folk music are based on Just Intonation, and they are examples of music which is harmonically pure. To test yourself, after a lengthy exposure to music played only in Just Intonation, find a "properly" tuned piano and then play one octave on its keyboard, one tone following another individually. And, when you get to a point where one octave on a piano prompts you to wonder why the piano sounds out of tune, then congratulate yourself because your ear is then aware of what harmonically pure actually is. Moreover, when your musical ear becomes truly aware, you might find yourself mumbling and cursing about the limits of digital recordings because only analog recordings can deliver harmonically pure tones.

Again, once you cross that bridge then you can never go back.

(btw I can't remember just now if the latter include quartertones -which are a slightly different matter- but at least Bartok's second violin concerto does: they definitely do sound "weird" but not unpleasantly so)

Quarter-tones are not traditionally part of Western music, although some avant-garde musicians have promoted them. However, the traditional music of the Arab world does include quarter-tones. Egyptian music, for instance, also includes some great rhythmic themes, too.

[tuulen]

...How about dissonance, then?...

Practice makes perfect, as a saying goes.

In music, however, practice, practice, practice MUST NEVER make perfect.

Perfect is just too boring to listen to.