Why did Rauno Keltanen stop recording?

[AldenG]

and fornication, and surely there was no place in the church for that sort of thing.

The times they have changed.

Or have they really?

[sammy]

Again, once you cross that bridge then you can never go back.

Hmm - to be honest I don't think I'd even want to cross that bridge into "harmonic perfection" because I want to enjoy my Bach and Dutilleux and Brahms and Nick Drake and Joni Mitchell and Opeth and Popol Vuh and Fairport Convention and Bruckner and Kenny Wheeler and...

[tuulen]

Again, once you cross that bridge then you can never go back.

Hmm - to be honest I don't think I'd even want to cross that bridge into "harmonic perfection" because I want to enjoy my Bach and Dutilleux and Brahms and Nick Drake and Joni Mitchell and Opeth and Popol Vuh and Fairport Convention and Bruckner and Kenny Wheeler and...

Bach is a controversial musician because it was he who put the finishing touches on Equal Temperament, but all of that effort did not become manifest until the Classical era, and virtually all of the music Bach is famous for was done in joyously sweet, Just Intonation. J. Brahms was an outstanding Romance musician, but his well known melody, Lullaby, when played on one of the strings or on one the winds in Just Intonation is so beautiful that it can reduce a person to tears. J. Mitchell is another artist who can deliver an exceptional performance.

If you keep going in those directions, you will cross that bridge.

[AldenG]

I want to enjoy my Bach and Dutilleux and Brahms and Nick Drake and Joni Mitchell and Opeth and Popol Vuh and Fairport Convention and Bruckner and Kenny Wheeler and...

OK, well, at least we overlap on Bach and Joni Mitchell. I suppose that's enough to be friends.

[tuulen]

The University of Connecticut has a radio station including FM broadcast and mp3 streaming on the Internet, and on Sundays there is a program which specializes in Baroque music. Dan Grieder is the DJ and the name of that program is Off the Beaten Track, but because it is a college radio station the time of that program can vary, not always the same, so check the schedule first: http://www.whus.org/schedule.cfm Also, the time shown on the schedule is Eastern Standard Time which generally is six hours behind the time in Helsinki.

You can get the mp3 stream for radio station WHUS here: http://www.whus.org/listen-live

[sammy]

If you keep going in those directions, you will cross that bridge.

As said, I do not really think so (and most certainly hope I won't) since, if I do have some goals or aspirations in my -ahem- musical life they most certainly do not include any sort of absolute perfection - I'll be more than happy to remain a somewhat pedestrian cloth-eared amateur as long as it means I can be enthralled by good music regardless of its background, stylistic label, or the tuning system used

Ok, so maybe stuff like the Brahms piano quartets and my favourite chamber works by Fauré (piano trio etc) are not as "harmonically pure" as some Baroque music but what can I say - so what? Bless me lucky stars I can not readily discern the difference, or even if I can at some subconscious level, lucky me I do not greatly care about it Perhaps I happen to quite like stuff that is "nicely out of tune" and (to paraphrase a certain valet who apparently ate a lot of fish) certain specific and scarcely to be anticipated meteorological conditions would have to take place in the infernal regions before I'd give up the pleasure of listening and exchange it for pitch perfection



Mind you, one of the reasons I do not readily wish to say "I like classical music" is that a) it conjurs up ideas that you'd need to be somehow "educated" or "classy" to enjoy chamber music for example (which IMO, as an idea, is rubbish) and b) just because it's "classical" it doesn't meen it is good music.

But then again it's just a matter of opinion, and for all to agree on these issues of taste would bring home the most boring option trophy hands down! Thanks for the insights on tuning anyway (this also goes for AldenG)

[tuulen]

If you keep going in those directions, you will cross that bridge.

As said, I do not really think so (and most certainly hope I won't) since, if I do have some goals or aspirations in my -ahem- musical life they most certainly do not include any sort of absolute perfection - I'll be more than happy to remain a somewhat pedestrian cloth-eared amateur as long as it means I can be enthralled by good music regardless of its background, stylistic label, or the tuning system used ...

The funny thing is that Just Intonation will simply sneak-up on a listener. It is only a matter of listening to enough of it. Again, go back to the "properly" tuned piano test, and the day when a "properly" tuned piano sounds "sour" to your ear then you will have crossed that bridge.

BTW, I am an amateur, too. Yes, I am a classically trained musician, but I have always been and will always remain an amateur.

[sammy]

The funny thing is that Just Intonation will simply sneak-up on a listener. It is only a matter of listening to enough of it. Again, go back to the "properly" tuned piano test

Tuulen, this is of course possible - but tell me - why on earth would I possibly even start to consider going that way? Or listening only to "harmonically perfect" music? I'm already listening to a lot of medieval/renaissance music, and equally much of 19th/20th centrury classical stuff, plus Chinese/Indian/Arabic music (not to mention what you might conveniently but misleadingly label as simply "rock") - so when it comes to musical enjoyment, even if (as I already stated) I do at some level perceive possible tuning differences between these on a subconscious level, I care not for them and wonder what exactly would be the incentive for starting to prefer one over another, when I simply like all those styles, musical traditions and periods?

To me, it sounds like a somewhat joyless path to tread - but don't be offended please, it's just my personal viewpoint.

I think the thing is that I tend to listen to (and appreciate) music, not tuning forks, or some "harmonic ear IQ" tests on differently tuned intruments - and while this tuning thing is an interesting theoretical issue as such, it will remain precisely such to me... you keep on using the expression "to cross the bridge" - well, I'll happily skip that and just swim in the river of music as usual

Still, I wonder if you could give some recommendations of "real" Baroque music that you mentioned - recorded albums, I mean. What albums are your favourites?

[tuulen]

The funny thing is that Just Intonation will simply sneak-up on a listener. It is only a matter of listening to enough of it. Again, go back to the "properly" tuned piano test

Tuulen, this is of course possible - but tell me - why on earth would I possibly even start to consider going that way?...

The UNIVERSALLY GREAT part about ear training is that it can only add to your appreciation of music, no matter what kind of music you could choose to listen to and no matter where on Earth it could be. That is totally positive! Sound is sound, no matter where you go.

[sammy]

The UNIVERSALLY GREAT part about ear training is that it can only add to your appreciation of music anywhere on Earth, no matter what kind of music you could choose to listen to and no matter where on Earth it could be. That is totally positive!

...but isn't that a bit controversial, if you simultaneously maintain that equal temperament is essentially what might be termed a "bad compromise"? For example, if the piano used in the Rachmaninoff recording I'm listening to now would sound somehow "sour" to me - how could that be a good thing?

And hey, I'm already appreciating music from different periods and parts of the world - if you say I'm not appreciating them as much as I could, or am appreciating them the wrong way somehow, then this is starting to sound like I've opened to door to Jehova's Witnesses - no matter what I think or say, they're still smugly right until I choose to agree with them (which is another thing that simply won't happen)... you know, the way they consider you as "not being In The Know of How Things REALLY Stand"... and evading troublesome questions...

[tuulen]

The UNIVERSALLY GREAT part about ear training is that it can only add to your appreciation of music anywhere on Earth, no matter what kind of music you could choose to listen to and no matter where on Earth it could be. That is totally positive!

...but isn't that a bit controversial, if you simultaneously maintain that equal temperament is essentially what might be termed a "bad compromise"? For example, if the piano used in the Rachmaninoff recording I'm listening to now would sound somehow "sour" to me - how could that be a good thing?

In terms of Western Art Music, the popularity of Equal Temperament cannot be denied, nor should it be denied. ET allowed an explosion of new and altogether different forms of musical expression to happen, far and away from the limits of what music in JI could do and can do.

And hey, I'm already appreciating music from different periods and parts of the world - if you say I'm not appreciating them as much as I could, or am appreciating them the wrong way somehow, then this is starting to sound like I've opened to door to Jehova's Witnesses - no matter what I think or say, they're still smugly right until I choose to agree with them (which is another thing that simply won't happen)

ET has dominated Western Art Music for about the past two hundred and fifty years. Indeed, Baroque music is considered to be antique. However, each has their own place, and that was the point I intended to highlight when I joined the conversation on this thread.

There are real differences between JI and ET, and those differences are well worth knowing.

[sammy]

There are real differences between JI and ET, and those differences are well worth knowing.

Yes, yes, but funnily enough, you still have not really answered my questions "the popularity of Equal Temperament cannot be denied" - dammit, you should become a politician, you twist and turn like a twisty and turny thing

I have no doubt whatsoever that there are differences between them, and indeed as you might already have noted I like "ancient" music as well, but the question was - if the result of training one's ear to consciously make a difference between JI and ET is that a normal piano sounds "sour" or somehow "wrong", what good would it ultimately bring? I mean if ET is not enjoyable anymore and sounds "sour" after a steady diet of JI music, wouldn't that be a bit awkward?

And do you think that -say- the Brahms string quartets sound somehow skewed for the same reason - or not (they're obviously not "Baroque" music but still performed on instruments that can at least in principle play in JI)

I'm sorry if I keep on harping about it but don't get me wrong - I'm asking since you can consciously hear the difference and I can't (at least not in a performance or album context, although maybe I would if I tested it in special conditions as AldenG suggested)

Just curious to know what your opinion on the above might be; what music theory says, that's easy to read from a book (and we've covered the basic stuff in this thread already)

[AldenG]

And Fauré. We definitely overlap on that and probably a lot of others, too.

[tuulen]

There are real differences between JI and ET, and those differences are well worth knowing.

Yes, yes, but funnily enough, you still have not really answered my questions "the popularity of Equal Temperament cannot be denied" - dammit, you should become a politician, you twist and turn like a twisty and turny thing

I have no doubt whatsoever that there are differences between them, and indeed as you might already have noted I like "ancient" music as well, but the question was - if the result of training one's ear to consciously make a difference between JI and ET is that a normal piano sounds "sour" or somehow "wrong", what good would it ultimately bring? I mean if ET is not enjoyable anymore and sounds "sour" after a steady diet of JI music, wouldn't that be a bit awkward?...

...perhaps an explanation of those differences could qualify as a doctoral thesis...

However, each has their own place...

If you speak with and ask other musicians then you will get the same answer. There is no easy, short or simple explanation, period.

[sammy]

And Fauré. We definitely overlap on that and probably a lot of others, too.

Quite probably, I'm into loads of stuff.

Tuulen: if you look at what I was actually asking, you might notice I was not after a theoretical explanation, or validation of any theory, but an opinion based on what you hear... but don't worry I will give up now. Forget it...