Why did Rauno Keltanen stop recording?

[sammy]

I have some Brandenburgs on ancient instruments that have distinctive intonation

Which ones do you have, just out of interest? My favourite tends to be the old English Concert set with Pinnock. Although I quite like the Freiburg Barockorchester (von der Goltz) DVD version, too. Again I can't say if it's a tuning/intonation thing or merely the kind of sonorities the smaller ensemble produces, the certain -erm- abrasive quality and briskness & crispness of playing that I've come to enjoy through many other English Concert recordings too (notably the Handel Concerti Grossi). Recording can also play a part in this, of course. I rather enjoy relatively "close" recordings, without excessive concert hall ambience/echo.

For piano trios, my frame of comparison would likely be the andante movement of Beethoven's Archduke trio. Of course I've never heard it in anything but ET, but in ET it sounds like harmonic perfection. I don't mean scientific perfection, I mean aesthetic perfection. D major is a great key for it....

Yep, to look for scientific or mathematic perfection in music sounds more that a bit silly to me. Granted, there may be some Pythagorean joys in store for them who like to analyse music down to the last minutiae, but it's really not what makes music interesting and magical IMO, and -to put it bluntly- I couldn't care less.

At the same time, I can't say I'd be able to analyse the differences between keys or modalities in the way you can... in terms of shimmer, or anything like that. Was it Pablo Casals who gave each of Bach's Cello suites some "metaphysical" characteristics based on the keys in which they were written? Be as it may, I'm happy enough to go for zen-like "wordless" enjoyment of those works; maybe it's somehow amateurish or "childish", perhaps I'm missing something by way of Grand Design of things... but I don't mind.

[AldenG]

If music ever stopped being magic, I expect I'd stop listening to it.

Let's see, the Brandenburgs I have on my Sansa seem to be Hogwood and the Academy of Ancient Music -- a rollicking romp if ever there was one. The #1 mvt 1 on this recording strikes me as a gleeful free-for-all somewhere between live orchestral warm-up and locker-room towel-snapping fights.

I don't have my CDs handy but I suppose this must have been my favorite at one time since it's the one I put on the MP3 player. I have no idea what year, whether it was originally digital, etc. I'm skipping through all the tracks now and the tuning does sometimes seem quite "distinctive" to me. If I didn't know the background, I might have supposed it only had to do with the difficulty of making centuries-old instruments behave. ( I've noticed gravity, if nothing else, makes all our sackbuts more recalcitrant as the arrow of time advances.) It certainly adds to the charm of this recording but it's not the only factor. And to me it's not by any means obvious all the time. It's certain instruments and certain passages where it makes itself noticed.

Other favorites, while we're on that topic: For Beethoven symphonies I tend towards the Chicago with Solti but also the pre-digital Berliner under von Karajan, the one they issued in the Beethoven Bicentennial Edition. Their later ones were disappointing, I thought. Of course there are all sorts of other interesting versions of them, many of which in later years seem to be trying to break world speed records. For the Emperor Concerto I mostly listen to Alfred Brendel and the London Phil under Haitink. I was lucky to find the Archduke trio relatively late in life (when fewer delightful surprises remain) and swear by the Beaux Arts Trio version. I can thank the Coen brothers and their masterful "The Man Who Wasn't There" for my first exposure to the piece. There's another issue with people who are mostly soloists (Ashkenazy, Stern?) that is more like a rivalry than an ensemble by comparison. With most music I can enjoy a variety of different renditions, but I've only ever known two really satisfying recordings of the Chopin Nocturnes -- maybe because I've spent too much time playing them myself. Those would be the old Vox Box with Ingrid Haebler, inexplicably not available on re-issue, and the relatively recent Maria Joao Pires, which I would just about describe as definitive. She "gets it" about the long lines and drama of these pieces where many older and better known artists have simpered through them as though they were mere miniatures.

There's a bombshell piano-duo recording of Dvorak's Slavonic Dances on Philips that is seemingly only available in Europe. I had to order some copies from Germany at one time, but now the same performances seem available in North America as part of a larger and more expensive collection. The pianists are Katia and Marielle Labeque. They set these pieces on fire and while Dvorak probably didn't envision quite these performances, I'm confident he would have exclaimed, "Hell, yes!" -- after "Yeehaw," of course. I have to say that repeated listening to this recording taught me more about temporal shaping that all my years of formal study, including my years in a conservatory-level music department. That was the one thing that teachers could model but never discuss, and I didn't learn to really recognize all the subtleties I was hearing until this recording. (Perhaps because it ISN'T always so subtle...) The Labeque sisters' performance embodies the notion of phrases "breathing" and they seem to have decided that at no point in their performance would there be static volume or tempo. By turns their performance can remind you of dogs first feinting and then racing off in chase of each other; a unicyclist on a high wire going back, forward, and hovering; herons taking off or landing; and all sorts of other imagery. If you listen closely enough, there even seem to be a couple of "whale song" vocal solos by one or the other sister, unless it's some really weird sonic artifact. It's probably the most vivacious piano performance I've ever heard and also compares favorably to the most exciting symphonic works known to the genre. I can't understand how it has languished in obscurity. Returning to the original topic, I would give the Keltanen/Gothoni/Melartin tape honorable mention in this category of most-vivacious performances.

OK, now I'm up to mvt 2 of #4 in the Brandenburgs, and I'd say that's one good example for checking whether you notice distinctive intonation.

[sammy]

Hogwood's Branderburg set - if it's the one that was released on Decca's "L'Oiseau-lyre" then I think I've heard it a long time ago. (I see it's only 8£ on Amazon, not a bad price for a double album. I'm tempted.)

As for me, "the" Chopin Nocturnes is the Daniel Barenboim version... I can't explain why, it's just the one I seem to like the most, perhaps because I originally discovered them through that particular album. The Ivan Moravec versions are also magical. I like to hear other versions too but these are the ones I keep returning to, especially the former.

Beethoven trios - I've still to discover those. Perhaps I should check out the BA trio version. If you like chamber music and Fauré there's no better bargain just now for absolutely beautiful music than the Florestan Trio version of Fauré, Debussy and Ravel Piano Trios... it's currently out at budget price on Hyperion -> http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDA30029

When it comes to symphonies I'm inclined towards Mahler and Bruckner for some reason, or even the relatively obscure Robert Simpson. And Sibelius' late ones, of course It seems to be the received wisdom about Karajan's Beethoven cycles that the pre-digital ones are better, and as far as I've heard them (I only have his 9th) I must agree. But I mostly listen to chamber music nowadays, when it comes to classical. (If you'd said this to me twenty years ago I'd have laughed but there you go... tastes change with age...)

Fancy you mentioning the Vox label. Aeons ago I got a cassette (!) version from my parents of Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet coupled with Bernstein's Symphonic Dances from West Side Story (Atlanta SO w/ Robert Shaw), originally on Vox. I got hooked on them. Only recently I've managed to find the same performances on cd, and it's funny how much better the West Side Story Dances sound on it than on the composer's own CBS/Sony set - I'm perplexed, to be honest, how the composer manages to completely mess up the Latin rhythm bits, and all this with an orchestra like the NY Philharmonic. The bits where Robert Shaw swings like an elk through the driving rumba/mambo sections, Bernstein ends up with what sounds like so much aimless clanging. One of the big mysteries on record - how did that happen? It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing...

[AldenG]

Hogwood's set - if it's the one that was released on Decca's "L'Oiseau-lyre" then I think I've heard it a long time ago. (I see it's only 8£ on Amazon, not a bad price for a double album. I'm tempted.)
...
If you like chamber music and Fauré there's no better bargain just now for absolutely beautiful music than the Florestan Trio version of Fauré, Debussy and Ravel Piano Trios... it's currently out at budget price on Hyperion -> http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDA30029
...
Bernstein ... West Side Story ... It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing...

Yes, Hogwood really has a pretty good set there. All I can say for certain is that there's something peculiar about them. Whether they're in precisely just intonation I'll have to leave to the experts.

I've ordered the French Piano Trios, though it's currently out of stock at Amazon, expected back at some point. I've always liked the Ravel but am not yet familiar with the other two.

I know what you mean about the Bernstein. Just last week someone was saying at dinner that he counted the Candide Overture as the best overture of the 20th century. But it has to be played right. I've always like the West Side Story suites, so I've ordered that recommendation as well. Bernstein inevitably leads one to think of Arthur Sullivan, wanting to be remembered for things other than what most of us consider his best work. Who has ever listened to Bernstein's Mass more than once? But offhand, were there any American composers in the 1900's who will remain listened to [ON EDIT: correction to reflect original intent: remain more listened to] over the ages than Bernstein and Copland?

[sammy]

I've ordered the French Piano Trios, though it's currently out of stock at Amazon, expected back at some point. I've always liked the Ravel but am not yet familiar with the other two.

I'm sure you'll love the Fauré. It's what might be termed a "grower". The Debussy trio is a bit lightweight -it's an early work- and the other two trios dominate here artistically to be honest. But even so, it (Debussy) is an interesting listen.

The Fauré Piano Quartets & Quintets by Domus (also on Hyperion) are worth checking out too.

Excuse me if I'm foaming at the mouth whenever Fauré chamber music is discussed. You may say I'm addicted to it Luckily, or unluckily, depends on the angle, there isn't very much of it. 2 Violin sonatas, 2 Cello sonatas, the aforementioned piano quartets and quintets - and his swansong, a string quartet. There's a gorgeous version of it on Naxos by the Romanian Ad Lib Quartet, coupled with Ravel. It's essential listening, and is almost free of charge. There's nothing cheapo about either the recording or the performance though.

As for Bernstein - I think I have his Candide Overture (on the same album as the curiously rhythm-less WSS Dances) - haven't listened to it for a while, must dig the album out and wipe the dust off it. IIRC that particular work gets a good treatment, perhaps Lenny had a good day then. Haven't heard any of his symphonies, he wrote a few didn't he? Anyway, American composers in general aren't very familiar to me. Off-hand I could perhaps only name a few in addition to Bernstein. As for works... only Barber's Adagio comes to mind And yeah some minimalist stuff, Glass, Reich etc. But I'm sure there's a lot of pretty interesting stuff out there, even if it's not widely known or "legendary".

[jmakinen]

were there any American composers in the 1900's who will remain listened to over the ages than Bernstein and Copland?

Maybe Charles Ives

[AldenG]

were there any American composers in the 1900's who will remain listened to over the ages than Bernstein and Copland?

Maybe Charles Ives

That's possible. And I'm glad you quoted me because it showed me a typo. (Over-editing, the bane of forum talk.) I meant to ask are there any who will remain more listened to than B and C. Not whether any others will remain listened to at all, of course. I'll go correct it, though I don't like correcting once there are further replies.

[tuulen]

Each has their place, and I like both of them.

...You can't seriously maintain, though, that answering simply "yes" or "no" to this unpleasantness question would be too complicated...

Unpleasantness really is not a consideration. ET and JI are uniquely different systems of tuning, where one can do what the other cannot do.

Perhaps a listener could eventually detect the differences between those tunings, but perhaps the best and most immediate way to appreciate those differences is to pick up an appropriate musical instrument and then MAKE those differences come alive, first hand.

[sammy]

Each has their place, and I like both of them.

...You can't seriously maintain, though, that answering simply "yes" or "no" to this unpleasantness question would be too complicated...

Unpleasantness really is not a consideration. ET and JI are uniquely different systems of tuning, where one can do what the other cannot do.

Tuulen, for God's sake I know they are different! That's not the f*cking point! Remember it was you who said that an ET piano sounds somehow "wrong" or "sour". Doesn't that sort of beg the question whether this "wrongness" or "sourness" could be experienced as unpleasant by a discerning listener?

You can argue about it until you're blue in the face, but the questions "is X objectively and by definition unpleasant" and "do you find X somehow unpleasant" are two different things, and a very simple "yes" or "no" will easily do for an answer to the latter

[sammy]

The pianists are Katia and Marielle Labeque. (...) If you listen closely enough, there even seem to be a couple of "whale song" vocal solos by one or the other sister, unless it's some really weird sonic artifact.

That reminds me of the first time I heard Glenn Gould's Gouldberg Variations. "What the heck, is my head humming or what?"

Maybe the sisters trod on each others' toes or something?

Speaking of Bach and the Well-tampered Caviar, what is/are your favorite recording(s)? Some time ago I got the full Angela Hewitt series that Anttila were selling at an insane price of 10€ or so (forgive me, but sometimes they know not what they are doing ) - it is growing on me. Gould sounds a bit too eccentric, but it can't be denied sometimes he was interestingly eccentric. Purists may shake their heads but I've always liked Keith Jarrett's Book I (on a piano). Haven't got round to purchasing a harpsichord version!

[AldenG]

Excuse me if I'm foaming at the mouth whenever Fauré chamber music is discussed.

So far I've only listened to the previews on the page you linked, but it makes sense. My previous exposure to Fauré is just the usual well-known stuff: the Requiem, the Pavane, Apres un Reve, and Cantique de Jean Racine. They all suggest a small-ensemble sensibility once you think about it.

I think my favorite bit of French chamber music remains the Franck Violin/Piano sonata, which I prefer with cello. I hope to play that with a cellist one of these days, but at present I don't have access to a good piano.

As for Bernstein - I think I have his Candide Overture (on the same album as the curiously rhythm-less WSS Dances) - haven't listened to it for a while, must dig the album out and wipe the dust off it. IIRC that particular work gets a good treatment, perhaps Lenny had a good day then.

It's kind of like a modern equivalent to the Magic Flute overture, isn't it? Although the Mozart is sometimes played in a weirdly sedate manner, it was clearly meant to be hoppin' and poppin' like the Candide overture. Bernstein just had several more centuries' perspective on how to make that happen. He wasn't swimming in the wakes of Bach and Haydn.

[AldenG]

Speaking of Bach and the Well-tampered Caviar, what is/are your favorite recording(s)?

I have no noteworthy or favorite recordings of WTC. I think at one time I had Andras Schiff on cassette. I know that somewhere I've got a CD version of somebody (Barenboim? Perahia?) that came from a record club but I can't remember the last time I listened.

[sammy]

I think my favorite bit of French chamber music remains the Franck Violin/Piano sonata, which I prefer with cello. I hope to play that with a cellist one of these days, but at present I don't have access to a good piano.

Yes that is a wonderful work. Haven't heard a 'cello version, though! I have the Grumiaux/Sebök version on Philips. Coupled with the Fauré violin sonatas (Crossley on the piano), it's a disc full of bliss

It (Candide Overture) is kind of like a modern equivalent to the Magic Flute overture, isn't it? Although the Mozart is sometimes played in a weirdly sedate manner, it was clearly meant to be hoppin' and poppin' like the Candide overture. Bernstein just had several more centuries' perspective on how to make that happen. He wasn't swimming in the wakes of Bach and Haydn.

I just dug it out & listened to it yesterday, I think (but am not 100% sure) this one below is the same recording I have (from 1960 or so) - I mean I have the overture only, on cd it's coupled with the said less-than-perfect WSS Dances, and some Gershwin (Rhapsody in Blue & An American in Paris...

[sammy]

...because he snuffed it But thankfully he left a bunch of memorable recordings behind.

A propos Bach: while it might not appeal to you Tuulen & AldenG (if you generally prefer your Baroque on "original instruments"), this Bach violin concerti recording surely is recommendable. This was well before the "authentic performances" that Harnoncourt, Goebel, Hogwood, Pinnock et al started, but still I do not think it sounds bloated or anything like that. Just marvellous music, exquisitely performed.

When it comes to record cover design though, some of the budget price series were quite horrendous. Including this "Silver Line Classics" series... the LP cover was much more stylish and inviting. Not that it matters much re. the music itself, but makes you think - where did they get the idea that cheap reissues of great recordings should look cheap?

[sammy]

I think at one time I had Andras Schiff on cassette.

Cassettes... I still have the Atlanta SO/Shaw album I mentioned (click to enlarge, and switch on Dolby to reduce tape hiss)