Not Impressed With Finnish Elementary Schools

[Tiwaz]

I had to deal with a bully when I was a young kid and all it took was one hit. Depending on how hard you hit someone in the throat depends on the seriousness of the injury, but it also depends on the size of the other person. The point of the whole sentence was to teach your child to fight back and defend themself. Whatever the tactic, make it count.

And little kid has so great ability to control their hit so that it is neither too weak or too hard.

Not.

Attacking throat is definitely no no.

As for your bully experience, from what I know bullies are not alone. Attack one and you can get all the rest to beat the crap out of you. Fighting back when you are badly outnumbered is not going to be an option. And targets of bullies are loners.

Thus, my advice to try to get kid to form social circle which would exist also in the school.

[ajdias]

Let me guess, you guys liked Karate Kid a lot when you were growing up

Unless the kid is going to earn its first belt over the course of a weekend this won't help much this type of urgent situation.

I've been trying to get my boys to join some martial arts club. While bullying per se is not one of the motivations it can possibly help. A kid who knows how to punch and kick is probably not going to be the first target of bullies. Also, the kid will know that (s)he can take a few hits and survive, so won't be so much intimidated by the threat of physical violence. This often translates into self confidence and into an ability to better stand for itself in most other situations, including those where bullying, picking and teasing may be involved.

[EP]

it might be martial arts, theatre, swimming, partio, music, whatever

My experience is that partio is the best, it is even better than sports. The friends made there are still around after 25 years. And it builds confidence when you at the age of eight manage without adults a weekend camping in the forest on a stormy October night. And at 13 manage (again without any adults) a week´s ski hike in Lapland sleeping in huts and snow pits. And those bullies were just hanging around in a warm mall...

[DMC]

My experience is that partio is the best

Who, what, where or when is partio?

[ajl]

partio is scouts, on Kulosaari they do sailing!

[Rosamunda]

My 7 year old has been at the elementary school here in Tapiola for 3 months now in first grade. In that time, between the school and the aftercare program, she's (...)


Her best friend goes to a different school in Latokaski, Espoo. They had two drag down fist fights in the first grade there within the first week alone. Honestly, I expected better of the Finnish schools than this.

...if all this is happening within the first 3 months of starting school, I'm not sure the schools can take all the blame. In first grade the teachers are pretty busy (teaching them all to read etc) and it takes them a while to get to know all the kids and to work out who the troublemakers are and what the group dynamics are like.

You could ask the home-room teacher to organise a parents meeting one evening and then discuss the situation with ALL the parents of students in her class (and I'm sure there are plenty of other things that can be talked about at the same time). Another thing you can suggest is setting up a google group or similar (Facebook page or whatever) where you can discuss things between parents as they happen. Getting to know all the other parents is really really important. After all, you are going to spend´the next 6-9 years with them all.

At a guess, I would say that "being different" is the root cause of her problems and maybe (probably) there are other "different" children in the class too and the teacher could do some lessons around valuing differences and tolerance and all that stuff. It was done pretty much routinely in Komeetta (which is an international / bilingual school anyway, so maybe more open to that kind of dialogue) but I don't see why it can't be done anywhere else.

But I can't think of any logical reason why bullying etc wouldn't happen in Finnish comprehensive schools, just as it happens everywhere else. So maybe your expectations were a bit too optimistic

[Tiwaz]

Running as fast as you can from a difficult situation is a great lesson in life.

And you would prefer option B of being bullied, tormented and eventually driven to suicide?
Or worse?

Or is in your way good lesson for life that you have to attack the bullies? Violence solves everything!
Great lesson there too.

[Tiwaz]

A kid who feels good about themselves has an air about themselves that smells like self-confidence. So so important is that parents provide their kids with the opportunity to find out what they (the kids) have an ability for/aptitude in and in which they find a group of like-minded friends/buddies.. it might be martial arts, theatre, swimming, partio, music, whatever. Kids who "smell" of self-confidence are less likely to be bullied because they just won't stand for the bull-*hit that a weakling bully is trying to spout out.

True but false. It is too late to start any special "self-confidence" training for kid after they are already become victims of bullying. It is possible to get up from that pit, but extremely difficult and personally I would not want to subject my children to suffering they would have to endure while trying. Even if they succeed, it will most likely leave it's marks for good.

Also important to remember is that if I, as an adult, was walking down the street and someone walking past me swatted me in the head, I have the right to go to the police to report them. Same thing on the playground at school.. Just because our kids are little people doesn't mean that they have less of a right to personal safety on the playground. If the head-master/teacher/other parent is not dealing with the swatting/kicking/hitting behaviour in a serious manner and our kid is still getting head/kicked/punched, I wouldn't think twice about calling the police. There are always a couple officers in every community who have training in dealing with children and I know that they will go to a school to deal with physical abuse on the playground *if it's not being taken seriously*. When the police are called in to a situation like this even an idiot parent might start taking it seriously.

Yes, because bullies are famous for respecting authority above all else.

Could work, but could also massively backfire at your kid when bully vents his/her fanned rage into the victim.

[Upphew]

There are always a couple officers in every community who have training in dealing with children and I know that they will go to a school to deal with physical abuse on the playground *if it's not being taken seriously*. When the police are called in to a situation like this even an idiot parent might start taking it seriously.

Yes, because bullies are famous for respecting authority above all else.

Could work, but could also massively backfire at your kid when bully vents his/her fanned rage into the victim.

I'd say that if we are talking about grades 1 to 3 it most likely will work, unless the kid gets backing from the parent(s). Father that has bullied for all his life is likely to teach his son his skills...

[he11kat]

I had to deal with a bully when I was a young kid and all it took was one hit. Depending on how hard you hit someone in the throat depends on the seriousness of the injury, but it also depends on the size of the other person. The point of the whole sentence was to teach your child to fight back and defend themself. Whatever the tactic, make it count.

And little kid has so great ability to control their hit so that it is neither too weak or too hard.

Not.

Attacking throat is definitely no no.

As for your bully experience, from what I know bullies are not alone. Attack one and you can get all the rest to beat the crap out of you. Fighting back when you are badly outnumbered is not going to be an option. And targets of bullies are loners.

Thus, my advice to try to get kid to form social circle which would exist also in the school.

I was like 10 years olds when I had to defend myself and that particular 'move' is very effective. I never had any trouble from that person ever again nor anyone else once the word got out. And funny thing was when I ran across this other girl in my 20's she still rememebered what happened and ran the other way... And as far as the Karate kid (for me didn't come out for a few years after that). It was an instinctive move for me to do I guess... who knows.

Bullies don't always attack in groups either, but gangs do. Only the cowardly type do and even then their partner in crime isn't ever as ballsy as the bully himself. They are kinda like the little cartoon dog that follows the big cartoon dog around thinking he's something special.

[Tiwaz]

I was like 10 years olds when I had to defend myself and that particular 'move' is very effective. I never had any trouble from that person ever again nor anyone else once the word got out. And funny thing was when I ran across this other girl in my 20's she still rememebered what happened and ran the other way... And as far as the Karate kid (for me didn't come out for a few years after that). It was an instinctive move for me to do I guess... who knows.

Your instinct had every chance to land you into huge pile of !"#¤%.

It is possible to kill someone by striking the throat. It is possible to cause significant damage to the vocal chords, severe structural damage or swelling that causes the throat to constrict-leading to death.

That move is something nobody should ever suggest as solution to anything but to defend ones life.
I have history and even today practice martial arts, and attacks on throat are defined as absolute last line of defence.

Because of differences on anatomy of people, it is impossible to be certain how much force remains "safe" and which becomes lethal.

Bullies don't always attack in groups either, but gangs do. Only the cowardly type do and even then their partner in crime isn't ever as ballsy as the bully himself. They are kinda like the little cartoon dog that follows the big cartoon dog around thinking he's something special.

Bullies tend to bully because it helps them establishe themselves with their own crowd. Bully rarely has reason to take action unless they have supporting spectators.

And those spectators would interfere, despite your assumptions on them being cartoon characters.

Also, bullies who are physical tend to be the bigger and stronger kids from the group.

[sammy]

My 7 year old has been at the elementary school here in Tapiola for 3 months now in first grade. In that time, between the school and the aftercare program, she's (...)

Her best friend goes to a different school in Latokaski, Espoo. They had two drag down fist fights in the first grade there within the first week alone. Honestly, I expected better of the Finnish schools than this.

...if all this is happening within the first 3 months of starting school, I'm not sure the schools can take all the blame [...] But I can't think of any logical reason why bullying etc wouldn't happen in Finnish comprehensive schools, just as it happens everywhere else. So maybe your expectations were a bit too optimistic

I quite agree on the first part, it's hardly the schools fault or at the schools responsibility if first grader kids behave like that The roots of the problem surely lie somewhere else. But on no account should such behaviour be accepted or tolerated by the school, nor should one just accept that it's ok because bullying and teasing takes place elsewhere, too (although penelope probably did not mean it that way).

Yes, schools should be more vigilant against such bullying and teasing... but stories like this just makes me wonder, what's wrong with the kids and their families if this kind of bullying is really commonplace? To expect that school alone would somehow be able to weed out or "correct" something that's already grown so twisted is expecting a bit too much

[Rosamunda]

I quite agree on the first part, it's hardly the schools fault or at the schools responsibility if first grader kids behave like that The roots of the problem surely lie somewhere else. But on no account should such behaviour be accepted or tolerated by the school, nor should one just accept that it's ok because bullying and teasing takes place elsewhere, too (although penelope probably did not mean it that way).

You're right I didn't mean it that way! Of course the school (and the after school club) should take action... but before they can do that they have to be aware of what is going on. Unless a member of staff actually witnesses what is happening, it is extremely difficult to sort out the culprits from the victims. Some of the worse bullies are quite angelic children, well-behaved in class and clever at not getting caught! But some kids are also born victims who call wolf at the slightest tease. It is quite tough for the teachers - which is why I think it is so important to have a tight parent network right through comprehensive school. The teachers will change but the parents will always be there. As the children get older (bigger kids, bigger problems) so it becomes more and more important (IMO) to be able to communicate with the other mums and dads.

[Tiwaz]

Bullies tend to bully because it helps them establishe themselves with their own crowd. Bully rarely has reason to take action unless they have supporting spectators.

Actually, research points to many reasons that a bully bullies (as a child and/or straight through into adulthood)

The below ideas taken from a book written by psychologist William S. Cottringer, Ph.D

1. Bullies are/were not given enough positive attention, acceptance, appreciation and love by their parents. This empty "love bucket" continues on in school, work and personal life.

2. They have a fear of losing or being seen as a ‘nothing” which motivates the bullying behavior. (Incidentally, Criminologists point at this as one explanation for criminal behaviour as well) Unfortunately bullying usually gives the false illusion of short-term winning, strengthening it that much more and making it quite hard to successfully "modify" the behaviour with intervention.

3. Bullying is really a symptom of extreme weakness rather than strength and is usually approached with reactive fear and anger rather than proactive compassion and understanding.

I admit that this is true, but I do not see how it invalidates my point.

For example two first ones have bully doing what they do to fill their love bucket and get approval, and thus be more than "nothing", from others.

That is not to say that there is no one on one bullying where others are not present, but then it is more about establishing dominance over someone else.

[sammy]

I quite agree on the first part, it's hardly the schools fault or at the schools responsibility if first grader kids behave like that The roots of the problem surely lie somewhere else. But on no account should such behaviour be accepted or tolerated by the school, nor should one just accept that it's ok because bullying and teasing takes place elsewhere, too (although penelope probably did not mean it that way).

You're right I didn't mean it that way! Of course the school (and the after school club) should take action... but before they can do that they have to be aware of what is going on. Unless a member of staff actually witnesses what is happening, it is extremely difficult to sort out the culprits from the victims. Some of the worse bullies are quite angelic children, well-behaved in class and clever at not getting caught! But some kids are also born victims who call wolf at the slightest tease. It is quite tough for the teachers - which is why I think it is so important to have a tight parent network right through comprehensive school. The teachers will change but the parents will always be there. As the children get older (bigger kids, bigger problems) so it becomes more and more important (IMO) to be able to communicate with the other mums and dads.

One big part of the problem might be that teachers just can not do anything except "talk" anymore... if two kids are fighting and you as much as touch one of them when trying to separate them, you could be in big trouble. Is it even possible to inflict jälki-istunto (is that detention in English?) on the little buggers nowadays?

I'm not advocating the return of the cane or anything like that but sometimes wonder whether there's a slight contradiction in thinking that "violence or punishments are not a solution"... whilst they are the solution to almost all problems in the games these kids play, the tv programmes and movies they watch, etc etc. It's almost as if they do not really understand what it is like when people get hurt in the real life, what pain is. It's just "entertainment" to them, just like everything else.



Hmm... attack over