varta vasten

[kalmisto]

How would you translate "varta vasten" into English in the sentence "He ovat tulleet Suomeen varta vasten ulkomailta" on this page ?
http://www.iltasanomat.fi/kotimaa/Helsi ... 86046.html

[kalmisto]

"purposely" would perhaps be correct
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/varta_vasten

[j.petsku]

So, I was curious the first time around, but now I have to ask...why is it that all these thieves are intentionally coming to Finland?

"Varta vasten," or intentionally, was used in another recent article about thieves that got some attention on Finland forum.

http://finlandforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=51219

It makes it sound like Finland is either very lucrative for some reason or has loose law enforcement. Or is there a small element of xenophobia in these references? As if Finland couldn't possibly have domestic thieves? Just wondering...

[kalmisto]

t makes it sound like Finland is either very lucrative for some reason or has loose law enforcement. Or is there a small element of xenophobia in these references? As if Finland couldn't possibly have domestic thieves? Just wondering.

I think that there is a difference between Finnish thieves and international professional gangs of pickpockets who operate in Helsinki a few weeks and then move on to some other city. The international gangs are very good at what they do and they are very active during their stay in the country. Helsinki is not the only city they operate in. They move around a lot.

The Swedish daily newspaper Dagens Nyheter ( on December the 5th 2011 ) :
Julhandeln är här - och ficktjuvarna ( Christmas commerce is here - and pickpockets )

From the article :

Många av tjuvarna tillhör enligt polisen internationella ligor som reser enbart till Sverige för att stjäla. De kommer ofta från Sydamerika och södra Europa.
De här ligorna härjar under hela året men är flitigast på sommaren och under december och januari, tillägger Peter Enell.

( According to the Police many of the thiefs belong to international gangs who travel to Sweden solely to steal. They come often from South America and southern Europe. These gangs are active throughout the whole year but are most active in summertime and in December and January, Peter Enell adds. )

I think that it is very good that the Police warn the public of these people.

[Jukka Aho]

So, I was curious the first time around, but now I have to ask...why is it that all these thieves are intentionally coming to Finland?

"Varta vasten," or intentionally, was used in another recent article about thieves that got some attention on Finland forum.

http://finlandforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=51219

It makes it sound like Finland is either very lucrative for some reason or has loose law enforcement.

The post-war Finland, striving to become a Nordic welfare state modeled after Sweden (and pretty much attaining that goal during the 1970s) got used to viewing itself a safe country where such things as street robberies, pickpocketing, beggars, random gang/street violence, violent burglaries, people living in makeshift shacks and trailers etc. were something distant... the kind of things that happened in “those other countries”, but not here, not among us; in an organized, civilized society subscribing to the Enlightenment ideals! We only had a couple of token winos that everyone knew and that was that.

The recent thief-gang and beggar stories in media seem to be connected to the recent (2007) additions to the happy EU family: Romania and Bulgaria – especially the former, and more specifically to their Roma minority (as non-Roma Romanians themselves would usually so eagerly like to point out – and they have, on this forum as well!) It appears the Finnish officials have been somewhat inefficient and unprepared for dealing with such things – not having previous experience about them, or at least not having previous experience on them being carried out in such an organized manner. So it’s all new to us, in a way. Or something we – the Finnish society at large – thought was a thing of a past which would never come back to haunt us... as we have already “solved” it with welfare, compulsory education, the ombudsman for equality, elderly care, social workers and child protection, etc.

So that’s the “Finnish viewpoint” for you...

[kalmisto]

j.petsku

Read this also ! :
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Helsin ... 5246618435

[AldenG]

I prefer "specifically," "deliberately," or "intentionally" to the translations given in the Wiktionary article. Maybe it's a national or regional thing, but while I wouldn't call "purposely" illegitimate, it does seem to get used a lot by people who aren't otherwise particularly adept at choosing their words.

Varta vasten kävin tällä viikolla Ikeassa, kun teki mieli suolakurkkuja.

I went to Ikea this week specifically because I felt like buying pickles.

I deliberately went to Ikea this week because I felt like some pickles.
(I'm not 100% happy with deliberately here, but I certainly like it better than purposely or willfully. Willful to me is more like obstinate or hard to make behave. Deliberately is more like, "He deliberately [not accidentally, as one might otherwise assume] crashed his car into the lamppost.")

I went to Ikea this week specifically to find some pickles.

I went to Ikea this week for the express/specific purpose of buying pickles.

The meaning of varta vasten is quite simple: specifically (to), for the express purpose (of). The translation is often a bit tricky, though, and I'm not sure why. I guess it's because it functions grammatically in a different manner than most English words or phrases with equivalent meaning. You can't necessarily put the translation in the same exact spot of the sentence or the same grammatical form, or something like that. Having a brain-foggy day today.

[AldenG]

"For the express purpose of" is a funny phrase. Try as I might, I can't get the meaning of "express purpose" from the sum of its parts. But there is no doubt that it means "specific purpose." It sounds like a bastardization of "expressed purpose" and I suppose that historically, it might be. But today, someone who says "expressed purpose" either (a) means that the subject of the sentence made an explicit declaration of intent; or more likely (b) is actually trying to say "express purpose" but has some confusion about how to use it correctly.

[AldenG]

Would it not be more common to say, Kävin varta vasten Ikeassa tällä viikolla, kun... -- or is that just me being confused about how to use it correctly?

[Jukka Aho]

Varta vasten kävin tällä viikolla Ikeassa, kun teki mieli suolakurkkuja.

Would it not be more common to say, Kävin varta vasten Ikeassa tällä viikolla, kun... -- or is that just me being confused about how to use it correctly? :wink:

The word order in the original sentence suggests the speaker wants to emphasize the fact he actually deliberately went there, on purpose, and out of his free will and desire... with the specific plan to buy some pickles in his mind. It sounds like something taken from a conversation where an earlier speaker has perhaps questioned whether anyone would actually visit Ikea if their wife doesn’t make them to...

[j.petsku]

The recent thief-gang and beggar stories in media seem to be connected to the recent (2007) additions to the happy EU family: Romania and Bulgaria – especially the former, and more specifically to their Roma minority (as non-Roma Romanians themselves would usually so eagerly like to point out – and they have, on this forum as well!) It appears the Finnish officials have been somewhat inefficient and unprepared for dealing with such things – not having previous experience about them, or at least not having previous experience on them being carried out in such an organized manner. So it’s all new to us, in a way. Or something we – the Finnish society at large – thought was a thing of a past which would never come back to haunt us... as we have already “solved” it with welfare, compulsory education, the ombudsman for equality, elderly care, social workers and child protection, etc.

So that’s the “Finnish viewpoint” for you...

Thanks, Jukka, for that viewpoint. It explains quite a bit, actually. And thanks, Kalmisto, for the background.

The meaning of varta vasten is quite simple: specifically (to), for the express purpose (of). The translation is often a bit tricky, though, and I'm not sure why. I guess it's because it functions grammatically in a different manner than most English words or phrases with equivalent meaning. You can't necessarily put the translation in the same exact spot of the sentence or the same grammatical form, or something like that. Having a brain-foggy day today.

AldenG, this is exactly what I feel compelled to translate varta vasten as in the passage posted by the OP: specifically to, and for the express purpose of, but there is nothing for me to plug in after "to" or "of," hence my confusion. If I could translate it as, "They have come to Finland from abroad for the express purpose of picking pockets," the sentence would leave me with less questions, but it just doesn't seem like that exists in the original. It seems rather to be saying, "They have come intentionally/specifically to Finland from abroad," which begs the question: why Finland? As Kalmisto has illustrated, the phenomenon is not unique to Finland, so perhaps the more important point is that the thieves are intentionally nomadic. And if, as Jukka points out, the Finnish police were taken off guard by it, then that could serve as some of the potential subtext. Or am I simply just not understanding the emphasis correctly?

[AldenG]

It does seem a strange sentence. I wonder if it's the result of hasty editing away from something where varta vasten made more sense. They could be coming specifically to Finland or specifically from abroad and I can't really make sense of either. Where else would you be coming to Finland from? And how would you come to Finland other than on purpose, by deliberate choice, etc.

If the article had made it appear that Finnish authorities are less capable than most EU nations of dealing with such thefts, then it might make sense. But as it is, I still don't get it.

Well, I guess on reflection it can only mean they have come to Finland for the specific purpose of thievery -- the one thing NOT mentioned in the sentence -- as opposed to other possible reasons for being here.

And when I try to recall the other recent article on the subject, it sounds like this one is just ineptly condensed from that article, leaving varta vasten sort of dangling unattached.

[Rob A.]

I think it is probably simply that these people have found out in recent years, that people in Finland have been...and to some extent, still are....less vigilant than people in other parts of Europe...and so they come to Finland ....varta vasten....

Eventually the locals will "catch up" on this kind of theft and it will be come more difficult for them to operate....

Occasionally in my part of the world these groups make their appearance then disappear for a while until the "vigilance" level drops again....their "preferred" victims seem to be small Asian-owned businesses were they can more easily distract the person in attendance....

This is the "down-side" of living in relatively honest societies....you tend to take things for granted as the "norm"....

[Edit: Oh yes....I just remembered an "incident" I witnessed in a bus station in Switzerland last year....a group of Roma walked in and in an instant one of the shopkeepers rather rudely chased them away....no PC behaviour....no "politeness"....just ...."Get out!!!".... ]

[Jukka Aho]

AldenG, this is exactly what I feel compelled to translate varta vasten as in the passage posted by the OP: specifically to, and for the express purpose of, but there is nothing for me to plug in after "to" or "of," hence my confusion. If I could translate it as, "They have come to Finland from abroad for the express purpose of picking pockets," the sentence would leave me with less questions, but it just doesn't seem like that exists in the original. It seems rather to be saying, "They have come intentionally/specifically to Finland from abroad," which begs the question: why Finland? As Kalmisto has illustrated, the phenomenon is not unique to Finland, so perhaps the more important point is that the thieves are intentionally nomadic.

Both news stories use the expression “varta vasten ulkomailta tulleet”. The writer’s point is not that they targeted Finland, specifically, but that they had no other background intent and motivation for their trip but to engange in thievery in the target country.

And if, as Jukka points out, the Finnish police were taken off guard by it

It began a couple of years ago with the arrival of the Romanian (Roma) “buskers” who couldn’t exactly play their instruments but simply turned up in some random city corner and made some silly random noises with them... Some tone-deaf natives – little old ladies and such – gave them money for the non-effort, nonetheless. (I was actually amused by it at first... what a cheeky “business model”!) Then the beggars and the flower-pushers followed. Not sure if the pickpocketers and shoplifting gangs were part of it from the beginning, but now they apparently are.

Many of these recent arrivals travel back to their home country for winter but some have managed to survive in Helsinki year round in (illegal) makeshift camps which the city officials and the police have somehow been unable to dismantle. (That might be because there are also activist organizations which help them, many of them quite aggressive and left-leaning. These activist groups – Vapaa liikkuvuus etc. – are trying to teach “the bourgeois”, the EU elite and the local companies a lesson about globalization, income divide, poverty, discrimination, and everything that’s wrong with the world, carefully rubbing it in everyone’s face. From their viewpoint, we [the mindless middle-class zombies and the powers-that-be] deserve it all, and there’s nothing wrong with having beggars everywhere as it just helps drive home the point what a gigantic sham the current global capitalist system is. Or something to that effect.)

Some years before this all started (2003), Finland repealed all local (municipal) ordnances and replaced them with a unified code (the Public Order Act, or Järjestyslaki) which didn’t really provide means to control any of this... as this kind of development was simply not foreseen at the time of writing the law. If we hadn’t done that, cities could perhaps have made some decisions swifter in the matter, and the local police could have been a bit more proactive. Now everyone’s been telling their hands are basically tied because of the law.

I guess the police are painfully aware of what’s going on but people sitting in city councils have been infighting over the matter... unsure as just what to do about it, and whether it is legal to do anything since they’re EU citizens, after all. Some of them have also been echoing the sentiments of the activist groups, questioning whether we even have a right to do anything else than... maybe somehow help the Roma in Romania so they perhaps didn’t want to visit us quite so often. Some of the Helsinki City Council members have also made a field trip to Romania to see what’s going on in there (I think there was some boozing-related scandal connected to that trip!) and some other trips have been made to the neighboring Nordic countries to learn how they have dealt with this all... although I’m not too optimistic about anything decisive coming out of that, either.

So it’s all FUBAR’d just the way the local and national politicians usually accomplish doing these things... I guess they no longer allow the Romanians – citizens of another EU country – to apply for asylum here, though... which was something many of them actually did for a while in order to sit in the refugee center and collect the benefits while their sure-to-be-dismissed application was slowly being processed.

[Rob A.]

Both news stories use the expression “varta vasten ulkomailta tulleet”. The writer’s point is not that they targeted Finland, specifically, but that they had no other background intent and motivation for their trip but to engange in thievery in the target country.

Hmmm...when I was looking at that article I somehow got the impression that varta vasten was a fairly strong comment.....carrying the idea that these groups had specifically targeted Finland....

For example, I think it's doubtful someone would ever say:
Rob A. varta vasten ulkomaalta...Kanadalta...tuli Suomeen vierailemaan.
..I suppose it could be said, but to my admittedly non-Finnish trained ears, it sounds a bit provocative...

However, I imagine you might hear:
Rob A. varta vasten ulkomaalta....Kanadalta...tuli Suomen valtiosalaisuuksien varastamaan.....

...or have I read too much into this story???