Singular/Plural indefinite pronouns + joka vs. että

[decyferbrown]

I've seen that the indefinite pronouns kukaan, kumpikaan and moni take singular verb forms whereas in english they take singular.
What I want to know is this: I've seen kaikki used with both the singular on and plural ovat, why is this?

Also, while I'm at it: what is the true grammatical difference between joka, mitä and että or are they interchangeable?

Kiitos paljon!

[Rob A.]

Well, as no one else has taken this on, I'll see if I can "prime the pump" a little...

I've seen that the indefinite pronouns kukaan, kumpikaan and moni take singular verb forms whereas in english they take singular.

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here. These three are nominative singular forms and naturally they would "take" singular verbs....The plural forms would have a plural verb form.... kutkaan...though you would use ..ketkään, kummatkaan and monet...

What I want to know is this: I've seen kaikki used with both the singular on and plural ovat, why is this?

Kaikki is the same in both the singular and plural nominative...though in other cases it will have different forms...i.e., partitive...kaikkea/kaikkia.

Also, while I'm at it: what is the true grammatical difference between joka, mitä and että or are they interchangeable?

1. joka ...is a relative pronoun [.."who"/"which"] ...and an indefinite pronoun....["every"/ each"]

2. mitä ...is more complicated...it is the partitive form of mikä. It is an interrogative pronoun and also a relative pronoun which, I suppose, can be used in some of the same places as joka....but this is getting a bit complicated for me, so I think I'll defer to someone with more knowledge of Finnish than I...

3. että ...again this is a bit complicated, but it generally can be used in the same way as the ubiquitous, "that", in English...including being left out altogether if it can easily be implied....it is a conjunction associated with subordinate clauses...

[decyferbrown]

Thanks very much for the reply!!

A few questions though, since my English-brain is having difficulty grasping this concept:
1) In English we have the pronouns either, anyone and both which do not decline for either case or number. How is it possible that kukaan, kumpikaan and moni have plural forms? Could you give me an example of where one would use, for instance, the singular 'kukaan' and the plural 'ketkään' in different sentences and contexts?
2) I do know that kaikki is the same in both singular and plural forms, but again, where would one use kaikki on as opposed to kaikki ovat and vice versa? Would I be right in giving these examples as correspondents in English:
'All (hope) is gone' = kaikki on...
and 'All (the men) are found'? = kaikki ovat...

I think the main problem I'm having in understanding this is because English pronouns do not generally decline, so it's grasping this totally new construction that may take a while to learn.

I read somewhere that joka is used for people, mitä for objects and että for verbs (eg. tiedän, että oli iloinen). Would this be the case?

[Rob A.]

Thanks very much for the reply!!

A few questions though, since my English-brain is having difficulty grasping this concept:
1) In English we have the pronouns either, anyone and both which do not decline for either case or number. How is it possible that kukaan, kumpikaan and moni have plural forms? Could you give me an example of where one would use, for instance, the singular 'kukaan' and the plural 'ketkään' in different sentences and contexts?

Kukaan ei syö etanaa.
Ketkään heistä ei ole .......I think it would take a singular verb, though it may depend on whether the group is being emphasized or the individuals within the group.

[See this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=44264&start=45

There might be other threads, but I haven't found any so far...the issue is the treatment of collectible entities....and whether the group or the individual is being emphasized.... ]

2) I do know that kaikki is the same in both singular and plural forms, but again, where would one use kaikki on as opposed to kaikki ovat and vice versa? Would I be right in giving these examples as correspondents in English:
'All (hope) is gone' = kaikki on...
and 'All (the men) are found'? = kaikki ovat...

This sounds good to me...the distinction as I mentioned above is whether the individuals within the group are being emphasized or the group as a whole....

I think the main problem I'm having in understanding this is because English pronouns do not generally decline, so it's grasping this totally new construction that may take a while to learn.

Welcome to the "club"...

I read somewhere that joka is used for people, mitä for objects and että for verbs (eg. tiedän, että oli iloinen). Would this be the case?

I don't think it is quite that "tight"....maybe do some Google searches and see if that gives you some ideas....

[decyferbrown]

Ahhh ! Alright, I get the distinction now (I think )! Thank you very much for that! Definitely cleared some things up!

[Hpslm]

A few notes on your questions, I am just a native speaker, I do not possess much more knowledge than what my ear tells me.

1) Moni means many, not both.

• Kukaan ei tullut tänne. No one (known or unknown) came over here.
  Ketkään heistä eivät tulleet tänne. None of them (a group obvious from previous context) came here.
  "Ketkään heistä ei ole..." would not be proper Finnish. The verb can not be in singular.. Ketään heistä ei ole täällä is okay as it answers a question where was asked if even one of a group could be here.

2) Kaikki miehet on löydetty or kaikki miehet ovat löytyneet or kaikki ovat jo täällä. The last example, if I am not totally clueless, has kaikki as a subject. The two others have not. The object doesn't affect the conjugation of the verb. I am not saying it is the rule you asked for but just that one needs to be careful with that.

... joka, mitä and että or are they interchangeable?

Short answer: nope. Että is a conjunction particle, joka and mikä relative pronouns.