Finnish PR adopting a child in India

kit · Post by **kit** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:48 pm

Hi!
Could someone consider the following situation and answer the questions that follow it?
If a PR of Finland (also from India) adopts a child (age - under one year ) in India, could he obtain a Finnish resident visa for the child? If yes, is the process same as the one for getting visa for a spouse or a family member? If the adoption is personal (child given away by a known friend's family to another friend), but legalized in India, will it be accepted in Finland? The Migri page talks about adoption by Finnish citizens, so I couldn't get much from there.
Many thanks in advance for your replies!

**Sponsor:**

Upphew · Post by **Upphew** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:12 pm

I think that migri doesn't care if the kid is made by regular in-n-out, made in lab or adopted.

DMC · Post by **DMC** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:56 pm

Cory wrote:You have 3 choices of places to contact in Finland- Pelastakaa Lapset, Interpedia or the Helsinki Social Office

Also be aware that you can use a combination of these organisations. You don't have to deal with just one.

lionel · Post by **lionel** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:24 am

kit wrote:Hi!
Could someone consider the following situation and answer the questions that follow it?
If a PR of Finland (also from India) adopts a child (age - under one year ) in India, could he obtain a Finnish resident visa for the child? If yes, is the process same as the one for getting visa for a spouse or a family member? If the adoption is personal (child given away by a known friend's family to another friend), but legalized in India, will it be accepted in Finland? The Migri page talks about adoption by Finnish citizens, so I couldn't get much from there.
Many thanks in advance for your replies!

Wouldnt bother with the Finnish agencies if you want the child adopted this lifetime they are the usual.
From pelastakaalapset pages

Each adoption process and its duration are individual. The domestic adoption process lasts from 3-5 years as a result of the limited demand for adoptive families. Intercountry adoptions take an average of 2 - 4 years. At the end of the counseling process in relation to intercountry adoptions, the social worker writes an assessment report giving details about the applicants, their life circumstances, background, motivation, and their suitability and qualifications to be parents

DMC · Post by **DMC** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:42 pm

What they don't tell you is what determines how long an individual case takes. These are averages and it could be that it takes less time - or more. Probably most people would welcome some way to predict how long it will take. There are 2 sides to the process. First there is the evaluation, to be sure the applicants are suitable people to be adoptive parents. Then there is sourcing a child. I would assume that the duration of the evaluation process is fairly predictable, whilst searching for a suitable child can vary more, but that is largely a guess.

Is it legal to use non-Finnish agencies? Are the results the same in Finnish law? I'm thinking of things like getting a KELA number etc for the child.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:59 pm

DMC wrote: Is it legal to use non-Finnish agencies? Are the results the same in Finnish law? I'm thinking of things like getting a KELA number etc for the child.

Or even getting the residence permit. Looking (= it looks complicated "enough") at the "Chapter 7 — Rules of Private International Law" of the relevant piece of legislation, I would seriously advice them not to proceed without professional (which could be either one of the listed agencies or a experienced lawyer who can advice if and how an Indian adoption would be recognized by Finnish authorities)

Adoption Act:
http://www.finlex.fi/en/laki/kaannokset ... 850153.pdf

Upphew · Post by **Upphew** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:09 pm

I agree that it would be best to contact lawyer. But I still _feel_ like it is not Finnish courts' business after the adoption is granted.
From the law Rip linked:

Section 38 (175/1996)
(1) Subject to the provisions of paragraph (2), an adoption granted in a foreign state shall be valid in
Finland without further measures if, at the time of the granting of the adoption, both adopters were
either habitually resident or domiciled in the said state or were citizens of that state, or if the adoption
is valid in the state in which the adopters were habitually resident or domiciled at the time of the
granting of the adoption.

Adopted and adopter are both citizens of India? Shouldn't it be after that just like bringing biological child over? Maybe a bit more paperwork showing the adoption in case of different names, but otherwise..?

DMC · Post by **DMC** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:16 pm

I think that makes sense, in theory at least. In practise I can imagine there being a certain amount of red tape involved in getting a KELA number etc for the child if you go out of Finland for a week or two and come back with a child. Maybe contact KELA first to avoid a delay in getting cover when the child first arrives and there are loads of medical checks, vaccinations etc to do.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:57 pm

Yes, I missed the part about "citizens", so probably it would be OK.

CH · Post by CH » Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:55 am

It does not matter to the Finnish authorities if the child was born or adopted to the family, as long as the adoption was legal and legally processed (or at least should not matter!). Contact Migri and flat out ask!

So, the task is then to have the adoption legal in the eyes of both India and Finland. If both parents are citizens of India, I would suggest for them to move back to India for the adoption and finalize it while living there. Be sure that the adoption is processed according to the law in India, every i dotted and t crossed.

Now, if one is Finnish and the other is from India, or they complete the adoption while living here, it gets a bit more tricky. Get a lawyer who knows about international adoption. But, as far as I know, private adoption is still valid in Finland, as long as... again... everything is done according to the laws in both countries. This is probably going to change soon, though. I'm not totally 100% sure if you would need a home study when doing private adoption while living in Finland.

How it usually works here is that you get a home study and then use an adoption agency for the international adoption part. But, as it is an identified child (meaning, they have a specific child they want to adopt), and I'm not so sure the adoption agencies here would want to touch that with a ten foot pole (it's really not allowed under the Hague rules, of which Finland is a signatory country). I would not trust anything they say anyway, get a lawyer who knows their stuff to be sure. But sure, call and ask them, too.

But, first of all, check what is needed to be legal in India. Then check what is needed for it to be legal here. They probably need to check with a lawyer at both ends.

Disclaimer: The above is just guessing, I have no idea how it would work in this case (I'm an adoptive parent, but I just know how it works when doing it the official way here). But I'm pretty sure nobody else here knows either, unless they have done it themselves, so get in contact with people who do!

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:47 am

CH wrote:I would suggest for them to move back to India

Which, apart from other possible practical problems, if done the wrong way, might even jeopardize their permits (it is not 'permanent' if one stops living HERE (edit: typo)).

The text for the relevant legislation has been supplied. Reading it carefully enough it seems a legally valid adoption in India would be recognized here if the adoptive parents were Indian citizens (even if residents of some other country, like Finland).

They would be well advised to get this confirmed from some other source than internet message board though. As an additional bonus they might even get some useful tip regarding applying for the permits and relevant financial benefits.

If the child is recognized here as legally adopted then legally he/she is as much a child of the new parents than a biological born child would be.

CH · Post by CH » Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:16 pm

Rip wrote:
CH wrote:I would suggest for them to move back to India
Which, apart from other possible practical problems, if done the wrong way, might even jeopardize their permits (it is not 'permanent' if one stops living there).

Yes, but that would be the easiest way to make the adoption totally according to the law and recognized everywhere (well, in any Hague signatory country anyway). If they live here, the adoption falls under Hague rules, if they adopt while living in India it would be according to the Indian laws only.

Rip wrote:The text for the relevant legislation has been supplied. Reading it carefully enough it seems a legally valid adoption in India would be recognized here if the adoptive parents were Indian citizens (even if residents of some other country, like Finland).

Well... yes and no. What is the relevant piece here is the Hague Convention, as both Finland and India are Hague signatories. And if they live here, and the child in India, the adoption would then become a Hague adoption, which makes it easier but also that they should then follow the Hague rules which in turn mean (as far as I know) that they should use the Finnish process for their part.

For the adoption to be a valid Hague adoption there is kind of three parts of the adoption. The child's papers must be in order, the parent's or parents' papers must be in order, and the actual adoption must be processed according to the law of the country where the child is. If one goes through the "standard procedure" here for the parents then that means a homestudy, being approved by the adoption board, and then having an adoption agency to process the adoption. One can also do a private adoption, and I think that would in this case be the best option, but I really know nothing about that (and wouldn't expect the adoption agenices here to tell them anything about it as they seriously disapprove of that). It should be totally possible, not that hard to do, but you are probably going to need to do a bit of legwork to get to know the relevant pieces of information.

Rip wrote:If the child is recognized here as legally adopted then legally he/she is as much a child of the new parents than a biological born child would be.

Of course! I would be seriously pissed off if the authorities said anything else. But the thing is to get the legally part done first, which is the basis for any adoption. I think this is something that is going to come up more and more as we have more people originally from other countries living here and wanting to adopt from their original home country (I actually had somebody else ask me more or less the same question not so long ago... same answer... "dunno, should be possible if the adoption would otherwise be valid in the country of question, get a lawyer").

Oh, and to the OP: Please, do come back and tell us if you get any answers! I would really like to know how this should be done! (Send me a PM if you don't want to post, ok?)

kit · Post by **kit** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:23 pm

Dear All,
Hearty thanks to all of you for your replies.The information and the links that you provided are overwhelming. Your responses make us think a little bit more deeper about adopting. The only concern (apart from the legal expenses) is that after a legal adoption, the child should not be left behind because of the strict Finnish laws - which could be interpreted differently on a case by case basis (just like KELA's rules, 'yes' to some but 'no' to some for a same case).We have not come to any conclusion yet about this...I will be glad to update everyone if we progress further.
Thanks again!
Kit

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