Need help filing software patent in Finland

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Jugglesfire
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:49 pm

Re: Need help filing software patent in Finland

Post by Jugglesfire » Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:19 pm

Rinso,

You clearly don't know what you are talking about because you combine different things which don't go together;
rinso wrote:
Jugglesfire wrote:
and we want to protect ourselves from being sued by some other company making similar product now or in future.
Your software might contain techniques that are already patented. In that case there is no protection.
This is not true.
If your software contains techniques that are already patented, the patent holder can claim from you. You cannot protect against that other than taking a licence.

1st, If a product contains portions which are patented that does not stop other portions of the product from being patented. Most products are covered by numerous patents. Those same products may also infringe other patents. Here you are combining a patentability view of a product with an infringement/non-infringement view of a product... can't do that.

Also, there are plenty of things you can do besides taking a license.

(if at all suing is applicable,if software is mere implementation of open specifications..)
If your software is based on open techniques, a patent is not possible. If it contains pieces of open source software, your product should also be open source. (although your copyright still exists)
This is not true.
If you used open (= existing) techniques, you cannot patent them.

2nd, If you use known techniques to come up with an inventive solution, there is often patent eligible subject matter. This is particularly true in pharmaceuticals, telecommunications and software. Some technology is "platform" technology which enables certain applications to be created. While you can't patent what someone else has already done, both the platform and the application can be separately patentable at separate times by separate people. However, you may run in to a case where you must license the platform technology in order to create the application. Regardless, the application can be patentable. Here you are combining licensing issues with patentability issues (which several posts have done)... can't do that.
Or do we register our software product somewhere?
Putting your software in the market is often enough to show when the product was "ready".
(make sure you can prove this date and the version)
However, the other person who stole your idea and got the patent will be able to collect royalties from all of your competitors around the world, and you in many countries around the world outside of Finland.
In that case, the patent could be fought. If it is based on "prior knowledge" the patent should not have been awarded.
Although I admit it could be costly, especially if you try to fight a company with deep pockets.
3rd, Maybe the patent can be fought and maybe it can't. Different countries have different statutes about what qualifies as prior art. Furthermore, different types of prior art can be used at different times in the "fighting" process while others can not. Prior use is only applicable prior art in certain contexts. Published patent applications (even those which never became a patent, nor were intended to become a patent) are always applicable prior art. Therefore, if you are concerned about a competitor patenting something and suing you, just publishing or using your own work is not "enough". What you should probably do is file a patent application, let it publish and then let the application go abandoned. Either way, if you are in that environment you should be working with an intellectual property professional. You should also probably have some type of litigation insurance. Either way... here you are combining a lack of knowledge on what qualifies as prior art, litigation issues, reexamination issues, opposition issues and patent prosecution issues... can't do that.

Why do people on here continue to offer advice and opinions on a topic they clearly are not well informed about?



Re: Need help filing software patent in Finland

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Upphew
Posts: 10748
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Location: Lappeenranta

Re: Need help filing software patent in Finland

Post by Upphew » Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:49 pm

Jugglesfire wrote:Why do people on here continue to offer advice and opinions on a topic they clearly are not well informed about?
Because Jugglesfire with 5 posts doesn't sound reliable source. In fact it sounds like a furriner that has no clue how things are done in Finland and after giving ill advise leaves the board with bunch of whining people who took his advice and got burned.

When the topic is "Need help filing software patent in Finland" and Finnish law states that software isn't patentable, what other advice you can give than telling that you can't get one? And don't get me started about opinions...
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Jugglesfire
Posts: 11
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Re: Need help filing software patent in Finland

Post by Jugglesfire » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:25 pm

Upphew wrote:
Jugglesfire wrote:Why do people on here continue to offer advice and opinions on a topic they clearly are not well informed about?
Because Jugglesfire with 5 posts doesn't sound reliable source. In fact it sounds like a furriner that has no clue how things are done in Finland and after giving ill advise leaves the board with bunch of whining people who took his advice and got burned.

When the topic is "Need help filing software patent in Finland" and Finnish law states that software isn't patentable, what other advice [can you] you can give than telling that you can't get one? And don't get me started about opinions...
So, by your standards Upphew, because you have over 4000 posts on FF you are a qualified patent expert? At 5000 posts are you then capable of performing surgery? What do you get at 6000? Other than your quantity of posts, what qualifications do you have to offer legal advice pertaining to patents?

Also, way to go on insulting "furriner"s on a site dedicated to "information about moving to... Finland".

Finnish law does not prohibit the granting of a patent which covers software. Plain and simple. There are many Finnish software-type patents. There are many that were originally filed and examined by the PRH/NBPR. There are even more which were granted European applications which have been validated in Finland. When the London Agreement takes effect later this year, there will be even more software-type patents valid in Finland.

Call a patent attorney here and ask them if there are any software-type patents currently in Finland and get back to me. I have had many conversations around the world (including here in Finland) about whether there should or should not be patents on software. This is by far the lengthiest discussion I have ever had about whether there are or are not patents on software.

Upphew
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Re: Need help filing software patent in Finland

Post by Upphew » Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:12 pm

Jugglesfire wrote:So, by your standards Upphew, because you have over 4000 posts on FF you are a qualified patent expert? At 5000 posts are you then capable of performing surgery? What do you get at 6000? Other than your quantity of posts, what qualifications do you have to offer legal advice pertaining to patents?
No. But I have history, visible and searchable here, and reputation (good or bad... well... :P). What qualifications do you have?
Jugglesfire wrote:Also, way to go on insulting "furriner"s on a site dedicated to "information about moving to... Finland".
I have no experience about moving to anywhere. But I do have over 30 years of experience of living in and life in Finland. Maybe I have omitted something from the Patenttilaki so it means something different in its redacted form?
Jugglesfire wrote:Finnish law does not prohibit the granting of a patent which covers software. Plain and simple. There are many Finnish software-type patents. There are many that were originally filed and examined by the PRH/NBPR. There are even more which were granted European applications which have been validated in Finland. When the London Agreement takes effect later this year, there will be even more software-type patents valid in Finland.

Call a patent attorney here and ask them if there are any software-type patents currently in Finland and get back to me. I have had many conversations around the world (including here in Finland) about whether there should or should not be patents on software. This is by far the lengthiest discussion I have ever had about whether there are or are not patents on software.
Software patent, software-type patent, patents on software... sounds like an effort to make things as opaque as possible, kinda like derivatives markets. I thought that in Finland we adhere to Finnish laws that says, imho, quite clearly:
Patenttilaki 15.12.1967/550

Eduskunnan päätöksen mukaisesti säädetään:
1 LUKU
Yleiset säännökset
1 § (30.6.2000/650)

Joka on tehnyt mihin tekniikan alaan tahansa liittyvän keksinnön, jota voidaan käyttää teollisesti, tai se, jolle keksijän oikeus on siirtynyt, voi hakemuksesta saada patentin keksintöön ja siten yksinoikeuden sen ammattimaiseen hyödyntämiseen sen mukaan kuin tässä laissa säädetään. (18.11.2005/896)

Keksinnöksi ei katsota pelkästään:

1) löytöä, tieteellistä teoriaa tai matemaattista menetelmää;

2) taiteellista luomusta;

3) suunnitelmaa, sääntöä tai menetelmää, älyllistä toimintaa, peliä tai liiketoimintaa varten taikka tietokoneohjelmaa; eikä

4) tietojen esittämistä.
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Upphew
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Re: Need help filing software patent in Finland

Post by Upphew » Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:20 pm

Jugglesfire wrote:Call a patent attorney here and ask them if there are any software-type patents currently in Finland and get back to me.
No, I won't call patent attorney, but I might call prh and do something like: "Moi, haluaisin patentoida ohjelmiston, onnistuuko se?" and get back to you.

edit. for op: better to call this week, they are going to be on vacation after that for a while.
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Jugglesfire
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Re: Need help filing software patent in Finland

Post by Jugglesfire » Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:21 pm

Upphew wrote:
Jugglesfire wrote:So, by your standards Upphew, because you have over 4000 posts on FF you are a qualified patent expert? At 5000 posts are you then capable of performing surgery? What do you get at 6000? Other than your quantity of posts, what qualifications do you have to offer legal advice pertaining to patents?
No.
Thank you for honestly answering that question.

Jugglesfire
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:49 pm

Re: Need help filing software patent in Finland

Post by Jugglesfire » Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:31 pm

Upphew,

Why is getting rid of software patents in Finland on this Finnish political parties agenda, Piraattipuolue, if software patents don't exist in Finland?

Upphew
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Re: Need help filing software patent in Finland

Post by Upphew » Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:36 pm

Jugglesfire wrote:Thank you for honestly answering that question.
No problem, I have no intention to make this online persona to be some kind of patent guru. I can and do make errors... and fool of myself, but I'll bounce back.
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Upphew
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Re: Need help filing software patent in Finland

Post by Upphew » Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:46 pm

Jugglesfire wrote:Why is getting rid of software patents in Finland on this Finnish political parties agenda, Piraattipuolue, if software patents don't exist in Finland?
Why isn't it in your agenda to stop beating your wife?

I can't find anything in their agenda nor platform for 2011 election that says they are getting rid of software patents in Finland. They seem to make point to oppose recognition of SW patents in EU and patents in general. Care to point me to right direction?
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