How adverbial modifiers work

[Tuonelan Joutsen]

From reading things, I think I've hit upon the generalization that an actual adverb is used to modify a verb, and the genitive form of an adjective is used to modify an adjective. But what about things like past participles? Or can you use either one, with the type of modifier differentiating between the senses of the past verb or the state? E.g., "Minä olen äärettömän rakastunut häneen" would be "I am infinitely in love with him" and "Minä olen äärettömästi rakastunut häneen" as "I have fallen in love with him to an infinite extent" (or maybe with "äärettömästi" moved to the end of the sentence)?

[Jukka Aho]

can you use either one, with the type of modifier differentiating between the senses of the past verb or the state? E.g., "Minä olen äärettömän rakastunut häneen" would be "I am infinitely in love with him" and "Minä olen äärettömästi rakastunut häneen" as "I have fallen in love with him to an infinite extent" (or maybe with "äärettömästi" moved to the end of the sentence)?

Yes, that’s how it works. Both your examples, and their translations, are correct. You could place äärettömästi to the end of the sentence if the desired emphasis in some case seems to call for such word order but that’s not required, either.

[mrjimsfc]

"äärettömästi " places emphasis on the term "rakastunut", so it depends on where you want to place the emphasis in the sentence. In coloquial english you would say "I'm totaly in love with him." or, "I'm in love with him, totaly!". (notice the exclamation mark) Just as Juka says, it's not mandatory, it's just where you want to place emphasis.

[Rob A.]

From reading things, I think I've hit upon the generalization that an actual adverb is used to modify a verb, and the genitive form of an adjective is used to modify an adjective. But what about things like past participles? Or can you use either one, with the type of modifier differentiating between the senses of the past verb or the state? E.g., "Minä olen äärettömän rakastunut häneen" would be "I am infinitely in love with him" and "Minä olen äärettömästi rakastunut häneen" as "I have fallen in love with him to an infinite extent" (or maybe with "äärettömästi" moved to the end of the sentence)?

The general "rule" is that adjectives modify nouns and pronouns, and adverbs modify everything else.... But that's for English... Finnish it isn't exactly the same, but seems to be be almost the same.... In Finnish, participles are verbal nouns or adjectives, in English the verbal noun is the gerund.... In Finnish, as you say, adjectives in the genitive modify other adjectvies, in English I think these would always...??? ...be called adverbs.

In Finnish the -sti" ending is a "classic" sign of an adverb, and, in Engish, it is, of course, "'-ly"....but these signs are not definitive...in both languages adverbs can take different shapes....

In Finnish, verbal nouns/adjectives seem to taught as "infinitives"; in English "infinitive" seems to refer to the basic form of the verb, which can be used grammatically, as a noun. And one also has to be aware of adjectival or adverbal phrases, etc., ...words which are strung together and act together...

It probably takes awhile to get used to these in any language...

laihana oleva kissa
laihina olevat kissat....I think these are grammatically correct....and that these would be considered two adjectives followed by a noun...and in this instance I think they would be described exactly the same way in English.

But I'm not really sure when and how you would use them..... and why you would just say ...laiha kissa/laihat kissat....Maybe a native speaker could give a few sample setences ...

[AldenG]

In Finnish the -sti" ending is a "classic" sign of an adverb, and, in Engish, it is, of course, "'-ly"....but these signs are not definitive...in both languages adverbs can take different shapes....

And of course we have homely, comely, lovely -- and timely, which is an adjective to most of us but a universal adverb/adjective to the Internal Revenue Service. In other words, or at least in their words, you'd better file timely so that they receive a timely filing.

[Rob A.]

In Finnish the -sti" ending is a "classic" sign of an adverb, and, in Engish, it is, of course, "'-ly"....but these signs are not definitive...in both languages adverbs can take different shapes....

And of course we have homely, comely, lovely -- and timely, which is an adjective to most of us but a universal adverb/adjective to the Internal Revenue Service. In other words, or at least in their words, you'd better file timely so that they receive a timely filing.

Indeed...but apparently in English, adverbs can modify adjectives....but can adjectives modify adjectives...??? In Finnish, apparently they can..... In seems the genitive case among its many other duties will allow an adjective to modify another Finnish adjective, but apparently not so in English grammar....

This conundrum and other such "earth-shattering" grammar concerns can be freely debated on FinlandForum....

[Jukka Aho]

And one also has to be aware of adjectival or adverbal phrases, etc., ...words which are strung together and act together...

It probably takes awhile to get used to these in any language...:D

laihana oleva kissa
laihina olevat kissat....I think these are grammatically correct....and that these would be considered two adjectives followed by a noun...and in this instance I think they would be described exactly the same way in English.

Hmm... I’d rather use laiha kissa and laihat kissat, respectively. With ordinary adjectives, there’s no real need for oleva. But consider these examples:

kunnossa olevat kissat = “cats that are all right” (in an ‘OK’ condition, mentally or physically)
raskaana oleva nainen = “a pregnant woman” (raskas nainen would mean something else altogether!)

[AldenG]

..but can adjectives modify adjectives...???

Jolly good question.

[Rob A.]

Hmm... I’d rather use laiha kissa and laihat kissat, respectively. With ordinary adjectives, there’s no real need for oleva. But consider these examples:

kunnossa olevat kissat = “cats that are all right” (in an ‘OK’ condition, mentally or physically)
raskaana oleva nainen = “a pregnant woman” (raskas nainen would mean something else altogether!)

I suppose this is another example of the lauseenvastike construction...in this instance a way of turning words that would not normally be viewed as adjectives into adjectives..???

Raskaana still seems to be a noun....or at least "noun-like"...not an adjective. In English, "pregnant" is the adjective and "pregnancy" the noun.... in Finnish, raskas in the essive case...."a state of heaviness"...appears to have taken on the idiomatic meaning of "pregnancy"....

pöydän alla oleva kissa...."the under-the-table being cat"....or "the cat who/which is under the table"....lauseenvastike...Right???

Oh, and I suppose this phrase would draw a blank from most Finnish speakers...

raskaana tauko....though it seems to attract 44 Google Hits....Maybe more common would be merkittävä tauko....???

[Jukka Aho]

Hmm... I’d rather use laiha kissa and laihat kissat, respectively. With ordinary adjectives, there’s no real need for oleva. But consider these examples:

kunnossa olevat kissat = “cats that are all right” (in an ‘OK’ condition, mentally or physically)
raskaana oleva nainen = “a pregnant woman” (raskas nainen would mean something else altogether!)

I suppose this is another example of the lauseenvastike construction...in this instance a way of turning words that would not normally be viewed as adjectives into adjectives..???

Yes, the entire phrase (raskaana oleva) is being used much as if it were an adjective.

in Finnish, raskas in the essive case...."a state of heaviness"...appears to have taken on the idiomatic meaning of "pregnancy"....

That is correct. There’s another, related idiom: (lasta) odottava (äiti/nainen). See this search for some usage examples.

pöydän alla oleva kissa...."the under-the-table being cat"....or "the cat who/which is under the table"....lauseenvastike...Right???

Yes. See David O’s example from a previous thread: nurkan takana oleva talo.

Oh, and I suppose this phrase would draw a blank from most Finnish speakers...

raskaana tauko....though it seems to attract 44 Google Hits....Maybe more common would be merkittävä tauko....??? :wink:

The closest idiomatic equivalent I can think of is merkitsevä tauko. Or maybe vihjaileva tauko.

Merkittävä tauko, on the other hand, would mean a pause that is “significant”, “major”, “notable”, “remarkable”, “resonate”, “distinctive”, or “great” in some way... maybe not so much in its meaning but in its appearance/delivery. When discussing pauses, this could probably only mean a pause that is significant in its length.

[Rob A.]

Thanks

The closest idiomatic equivalent I can think of is merkitsevä tauko. Or maybe vihjaileva tauko.

Merkittävä tauko, on the other hand, would mean a pause that is “significant”, “major”, “notable”, “remarkable”, “resonate”, “distinctive”, or “great” in some way... maybe not so much in its meaning but in its appearance/delivery. When discussing pauses, this could probably only mean a pause that is significant in its length.

And this American comedian was considered the personification of the "Pregnant Pause"...



Jack Benny died in 1974....but, as a child, I regularly watched his weekly TV show....He was very popular in his day...and with children, as well... Besides the "pregnant pause", he also used a violin as a prop....

[Bavarian]

Jack Benny with Laurel and Hardy:



(The Hollywood Revue of 1929 is also the movie that introduced the song Singin' in the Rain, which was the finale of the movie.)

[Rob A.]

Yes...Laurel and Hardy...

I started looking around for some vintage Jack Benny....I only caught the tail end of his years as a comedian....

Here's one that is absolutely classic Jack Benny...it had me bursting out laughing...

It helps if you know a bit about American history....and from that I was able to deduce, simply from listening to his material, the show originally aired 01 December 1951 ....Let's see if any of you agree...



And it is interesting for a couple of other reasons:

First reason...it starts out with an old cigarette commercial...absolutely hilarious...except back then they were actually serious...and the other reason ties in with the "Test Your Vocabulary" thread....listen for it... the joke about the word, "execrable"...which, of course, few of us can pronounce, even if we know what it means...

[Upphew]

The closest idiomatic equivalent I can think of is merkitsevä tauko. Or maybe vihjaileva tauko.

Scene: bar, after midnight
Lady in distress: Se tietokone ei vaan toimi!
Me: Mennäänkö panemaan... se tietokone kuntoon?

[Tuonelan Joutsen]

The stream of consciousness in this thread, as it were, is…interesting.

Thanks, everyone!