Henkilötunnus Vicious Circle - Where to start? O.O

[naila]

Heyho!

I arrived to Helsinki about a month ago (I'm German) and originally intended to stay only for the summer.
But now it seems like I might actually get a pretty good job and as I love the city and have always planned to move here at some point, I might as well just stay.
BUT my huge problem is the Finnish bureaucracy. To start working, I need the personal identity number (henkilötunnus). Asking for that at the maistraatti, they tell you to first get a residence permit from the so-called immigration police, even as EU-citizen.
Starting to fill this one in (application for employment), I realized that they actually ask for your henkilötunnus, which you clearly just can't have as you're filling in the form to GET one!



Can somebody please tell me where to start this marathon?
I just don't get the logic behind this...

[interleukin]

It is a misunderstanding that you need a residence permit as an EU citizen, you do however need to register your residence in Finland.
You should be able to get an ID number & temporary registration from the Maistratti if you show your work contract (it can be made without id number and then added later). With your temporary registration, you can start working, and then you should go to the police within a certain time (3 months?) to get registered as a resident. When that is done, you finally get into the system.

[onkko]

First as EU citizen you have right to work here up to 3 months withouth registering (directly after entering, 3 months no matter what you do you can be here and do what you want and that cannot really be monitored).
To start working you DONT need finnish ID number since your EU passport/EU ID card should be enough to prove you can work here. Make that clear to your employee, you as EU citizen dont need any kind of approval from state and finnish ID number after (valid, enough hours) work contract is de facto quaranteed.
Tell your employee that after written work contract registering is merely stamp in paper and youll get your number (i assume youre not mass murdeder or something similar what could be seen as "threat to national security" or havent banned to entering in finland).
So i conclude that youll should start from your employee since state probably wont believe or budge.

Anything above is merely how i understand legistlation and if there is errors please correct me.

[naila]

Alright, I think I just found the right form...

http://www.poliisi.fi/poliisi/home.nsf/ ... endocument

So it' s basically one more case of "even the officials don't have the slightest idea about what they're doing".
It takes long enough to find out that you don't need a social security or insurance number (Kela number), but that what everybody's asking for is actually the personal ID number (henkilötunnus).
Somehow they all still call it social security number (I heard that it's actually the same number, only used differently?).
Now when the woman at maistraatti told me I would need a residence permit, she was actually only talking about that registration form?
I always admired Finnish people for their great English skills and now it turns out the ones with the least skills are working behind the counters where English would be most needed...

[Rip]

Somehow they all still call it social security number (I heard that it's actually the same number, only used differently?).

Henkilötunnus (ID number) is the thing that binds everything here together (but as stated there is no valid reason to require an EU immigrant to have one for signing a work contract). Many still (even on this board) use the term social security number (sosiaaliturvatunnus) - although that has not been the official name for the string since early 1970's.

[onkko]

Well it was "social securiry number" and in common speech it still is, and de facto it means same even name has changed. Personal ID number/social security number/ id number/ person id/ person safety id etc, same number only name change, even I who have born in -77 do think its "social security number" Official do ask "henkilötunnus or henkilöturvatunnus"
When officials in your case talk about residence permit they are kind of right, difference is that they cannot deny your permit if you have valid reason like work and its basically "registering my right to reside" where local or govermet cannot say anything so you dont exactly need permit (if you arent threat to national security). It is kinda "recidence permit" but "permit" part is bit of odd since they (normally, when work contract is legit and proves enough income) cannot deny it so "residence declaration" would be better

[Jukka Aho]

It takes long enough to find out that you don't need a social security or insurance number (Kela number), but that what everybody's asking for is actually the personal ID number (henkilötunnus).
Somehow they all still call it social security number (I heard that it's actually the same number, only used differently?).

From the early 1960s on there used to be two different ID numbers issued to Finnish citizens. One of them was the pension card number (työeläkekortin numero) issued by Eläketurvakeskus. Another one was the social security number (sosiaaliturvatunnus, sotu for short) issued by Kela (Kansaneläkelaitos).

From the beginning of 1971, those two separate systems were abolished and amalgamated into a single system called henkilötunnus (personal identity code), or hetu for short. The sole issuer of this number is Väestörekisterikeskus (VRK), aka Population Register Centre (PRC).

Mainly because of historical inertia or ignorance, henkilötunnus (hetu) is still incorrectly called sosiaaliturvatunnus (sotu) by some people. Also, “social security number” might be a somewhat better-understood and more widely-known concept than the more all-encompassing “personal identity code” in international contexts and in the English-speaking world... which might lead some people opting to call it that way for convenience reasons, at least in a casual conversation, instead of using the proper term.

See these PRC pages for further information:

• Personal identity code
• Registration of foreign citizens
• History

[rinso]

So it' s basically one more case of "even the officials don't have the slightest idea about what they're doing".

Indeed.
I've heard of a few cases in the Helsinki area where officials treated EU citizens as non-EU.
It might have been honest mistakes, but I don't rule out sabotage.
Even for EU there is some room for interpretation (i.e. "sufficient funds") which can be misused.

[skye]

I'm also German and moved here last November, so I can tell you how it worked for me. I had to do some running around and got told at the Maistratti that I first need other papers before I can apply for the henkilotunnus, etc. - so i know the confusion....

what you need first is your employment contract. as the others already said, you can get that without any henkilotunnus or anything (I simply shared mine with the HR department later, once i got it). with that, you go to the police. if you're living in helsinki, it's the one in malmi. (and bring some time for that one - i waited 4 hours there.) they will check your employment contract and your german ID/passport and they send you per post within a week some paperwork that you are registered as a resident here. with that, you go to the maistratti and apply for the henkilotunnus. that number is also important for tax, if i remember correctly. meaning, i had to have it when getting my tax card, which then needs to go back to the employer as otherwise you have to pay the maximum tax. and in parallel you just apply for the kela card as well. done!

[naila]

So, I actually do have three things now:
My working contract, a bank account and my tax card.

It's true that without the HeTu they try to tax the !"#¤% out of you (35%!!!), but the friendly lady at the office told me, that as soon as I get the HeTu and change my tax card it will be made even already in the following month, meaning I probably wouldn't have to pay taxes at all then.

Concerning the EU-registration, I got a hint that as an EU-citizen you can actually get an appointment.
Unfortunately the link is only visible if you stay on the Finnish version of the page and disappears if you switch it to English, and even then it doesn't work properly. It shows days and timeslots, but no reservation links.
BUT on the Finnish page there is also this link:
http://www.poliisi.fi/poliisi/home.nsf/ ... endocument
Does that mean that you can actually just register online???
I do have the bank account to pay the registration fee online, so all it would take is a friend helping me with the translations?
Or am I totally mistaken here?

[Poison Ivy]

Hi,

My French boyfriend is going to the exact same thing right now and he's desparate at the moment. Can you tell me where you were able to open a bankaccount without your Finnish number?????

Thanks a lot

[naila]

I have my account at Nordea.
Instead of the number they asked for my working contract, plus of course my passport.
Took only ten minutes or so.

[Rip]

BUT on the Finnish page there is also this link:
http://www.poliisi.fi/poliisi/home.nsf/ ... endocument
Does that mean that you can actually just register online???

it looks like that in theory yes, but in practice you won't be able to authenticate yourself online. I guess it would work for somebody who has already lived here earlier and kept an active bank acount and after moving away is now returning...

[Rip]

I have my account at Nordea.
Instead of the number they asked for my working contract, plus of course my passport.

There seems to be differences between various branches. Your comment would be more useful to other if you told where exactly you were able to do this.

[interleukin]

I have colleagues that got bank accounts at OP in Töölön tulli (meilahti) with work contracts and passports (the meilahti area has a bunch of foreign workers so I guess they are used to them). There's a Nordea next to them, I would guess the same applies to them.