Is Finnish a dead language?

[miksi]

Is it just me or do Finnish language teachers teach Finnish like Latin, a dead language.

I have taken different courses at different schools like University of Helsinki Language Centre, Helsingin aikuisopisto, etc. I have also heard from others who had taken courses elsewhere like Helsingin Aikuislukio, Helsinki Markkinointi-instituutti, etc. All in all, even tough the courses were taught by different teachers in different schools, the teachers seem to follow the same teaching style and pattern as if they were all told to teach only this way. They throw a lot of grammar at you courses after courses so that you excel at reading and writing but by the end of course series, you still feel like you don't speak Finnish or even pronounce words properly.

Why the lack of emphasis on speaking and listening early on? Is the only way to learn Finnish is by drowning in grammar first?

[AldenG]

Probably because the ability to think and talk about the language in a Latinate way is a requirement for becoming a language teacher. They do what they are good at doing, regardless of whether it is productive in the end. And those who might have a different way of looking at language may not have a path to become language teachers through the official institutions that control it.

[onkko]

Thats something what is also in english teaching in here, i dont know why. In my time in 1990s when i was in school only time when you actually spoke english was when you red something from book, and i was common target to that because "i have such nice dark voice".
In case of finnish teaching as second language, thats relatively new and somehow teachers stick on their ways how finnish as first language is teached.
I still remember chant "ine, ela, illa, ade, abla ,alla" Inessiivi elatiivi illatiivi abessiivi ablatiivi and allatiivi but i have no idea what those mean, i barely know verbi what is "teonsana".
I do think that teachers should trash old ways and teach actual communication, enough vocabularity and understanding instead of all illatives.
I have learned lot more just by using english and reading/listening than in school.
Look at Wilson Kirwa, he is fluent but... well tarzan but he seems happy and i do understand, one video where he asks kids to repeat after him it was fun to hear that he said what he said and kids repeated correct version

[Rob A.]

Is it just me or do Finnish language teachers teach Finnish like Latin, a dead language.

I have taken different courses at different schools like University of Helsinki Language Centre, Helsingin aikuisopisto, etc. I have also heard from others who had taken courses elsewhere like Helsingin Aikuislukio, Helsinki Markkinointi-instituutti, etc. All in all, even tough the courses were taught by different teachers in different schools, the teachers seem to follow the same teaching style and pattern as if they were all told to teach only this way. They throw a lot of grammar at you courses after courses so that you excel at reading and writing but by the end of course series, you still feel like you don't speak Finnish or even pronounce words properly.

Why the lack of emphasis on speaking and listening early on? Is the only way to learn Finnish is by drowning in grammar first?

A dead language!!! Latin?!? ....it's anything but dead.....it's still alive and well, and "hiding" in those various "dialects" that pretend to be real languages ....French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian and a whole bunch of other smaller "languages".... Its presence is obvious in English....I can't imagine what English would look and sound like without the "helping hand" given to it by it's Latin "mother"....

Latin is obvious in German...and to an extent even in Finnish..... Latin is why it is relatively easy for many of us to learn most Western European languages.... And why West Europeans who somehow think they are proficient in languages seem to be stymied when they come up against Finnish...and to a lesser extent the Slavic languages and Greek [Greek, I might add, is another "parent" of English and even of Latin and its derivatives...but it's a little tougher to crack though....]

But I think learning any language is much more than simply sitting in a classroom and expecting some teacher to pour the language into your skull. I think most of the learning comes from daily activities....buying stuff, trying to talk to people, watching TV and movies...reading.

Each of us seems to learn a language in his/her own way...that's why classroom learning seems so problematic when it comes language... It's different than, say, history...going back further than the "living generations" means you have to read history and/or go to museums ...it's the only way...literature is something that can be taught, and mathematics and physics ...but it's not so easy with language... Grammar lessons are kind of like icing on the cake....the finesse....but not the main course....that you pretty well have to commit to doing largely on your own, with guidance from an instructor.

So instead of having the instructor command you to speak like a trained seal or something, why not go out and make your own mistakes in the "real world".... eventually you'll figure out the "code"...what works and what doesn't....

[AldenG]

Papa Portokalos would probably tell you why every Finnish word actually comes from Greek. Just as, say, 'kimono' in English does.



Phpbb3 doesn't parse the time code properly to start in the right place, but you're really looking for 1:59 in here.

Or just go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAvxebd7UTM#t=1m59s

[Upphew]

Is it just me or do Finnish language teachers teach Finnish like Latin, a dead language.

I'd say Finnish language teachers teach Finnish like they teach Swedish, English, German, etc.
Minus the "repeat after me" part that is not needed, as you can look up the pronunciation directly from the spelling.

[Jukka Aho]

Minus the "repeat after me" part that is not needed, as you can look up the pronunciation directly from the spelling.

Well, to some degree, yes... but there's more to it than meets the eye. If you want to get the pronunciation right, you should be aware of the allophones... and which one of them is a natural choice in which context.

For example, consider the “k” sounds in the words kala and kilo. They’re different, and it’s difficult and unnatural to pronounce the words with the “wrong” k sound.

The same goes for the “h” sounds in the words vaha and vihta.

Then there are things like onpa (pronounced ompa) or something like anna kirja (pronounced annakkirja)... or a suggestion to eat: syöp(p)ä nyt (you don’t want to pronounce it syöpä nyt.)

I think we’ve had the discussion about FSL teachers and their standard teaching methods a couple of times before... and I even seem to recall someone (Enk?) would have said they need to follow some national curriculum or methodology in order to make their courses adhere to a certain standard and fulfill the official requirements... whatever they are. I’m not sure if that’s actually the case but if it is and there’s no leeway for alternative pedacogical methods (except outside the state-subsided courses, maybe as a “rogue” Finnish course of some sort), it’s pretty dumb.

[Rob A.]

....or a suggestion to eat: syöp(p)ä nyt (you don’t want to pronounce it syöpä nyt.)

Hmmm ...something for Fingerpori maybe...

I can think of three interpretations:

1. "Would you eat now." ...a soften command (imperative tense) tto eat....
2. "Cancer now."...self-explanatory...
3. "Eating now."...apparently an old form of the present participle for syödä....I would guess there might be some dialectical use of this form ...????

Hopefully I've got this right...???

[Oombongo]

It is not dead language but it doesn't have much of use outside Finland

[Rob A.]

It is not dead language but it doesn't have much of use outside Finland

Other than a mere handful of "biggies" almost all languages have limited use outside of some particular geographical area.

But let's look at it statistically... Of course, statistics never lie...they only mislead....

The number of world languages is, of course, hard to really pin down.... in one list I looked at it even had "Bavarian" as a separate language...Hmmmm..

It seems that Finnish by number of speakers is in about the top 120 out of somewhere between 3,000 and 8,000 languages in the world.

That's pretty impressive....using the lower language total estimate that means in the top 4% of world languages....using the 8,000 estimate, the top 1.5%...

I don't know about you, but that seems pretty impressive to me....

About the only languages that can claim to have a broad world-wide appeal are English, Spanish and French.... But as for Portuguese, Russian, Mandarin, German and Japanese???...You tell me...

[Bavarian]

The number of world languages is, of course, hard to really pin down.... in one list I looked at it even had "Bavarian" as a separate language...Hmmmm..

Bavaria and Austria do use a lot of regionalisms that northern Germany doesn't use, but I wouldn't consider it a separate language any more than I would consider the northern dialects separate languages. And at least the Bavarian dialect is more comprehensible than Schwyzerdütsch. It was amazing to try to parse Roger Federer's victory speech in Basel (given in Schwyzerdütsch) a few weeks back. I speak German more than well enough to listen to news broadcasts, but Schwyzerdütsch is pretty much beyond me.

[CH]

I do think that teachers should trash old ways and teach actual communication, enough vocabularity and understanding instead of all illatives.
I have learned lot more just by using english and reading/listening than in school.

Yep, and a million more "yep"s! And a "This, so much this!". Teaching communication is the key, in my opinion! Seems like school just taught a lot of people to be afraid of using the languages they have been taught.

So, this is not only a problem with how language is taught to adults, but how language is overall taught here. I think this is sloooowly changing, but still... the language education here is very formal, very grammar based, and very teacher oriented. I rather have the kids learn "tourist language", where they are able to walk into a café and order a sandwich, than be able to go and continue their language studies in a university but not actually dare to open their mouths to say something. To be able to use the languages you are taught in school you really need to, as Onkko said, study it by yourself. And this really separates the kids in skill levels... those that "just do it in school", and those that have taken it further themselves. And this is ok, of course you learn languages better if you are interested and do extra curricular activities... but the schools should really be doing the same thing themselves, provide the kids with other means of learning language than just "the old way".

[Mölkky-Fan]

Well, I went on hockey tour with my 13 year old son last year and probably 50% of the Finnish boys were happy to speak some English when ordering food etc... can you imagine the same thing happening with an English or American U14 team on tour?

So it is not all bad, bad, bad... but I do agree that the Finnish lessons that I had were 80% grammar, and for me it was a disaster as I am useless at languages.

[miksi]

Bingo! Thanks, CH and others. This is exactly how I feel at the moment. I have no problem with learning grammar but I'm pretty tired of the way the language is being taught. It's so dry, dull and rote.

Most of the class time is spent by the teacher reciting grammar lessons from the textbook and handouts. Then you do some fill-in-the-blank written exercises in class where you conjugate words and sentences based on the rules you just learned. After that, the students take turn reading their answers aloud (with incorrect pronunciation that often goes unchecked by the teacher). In the little time that's left, you get to "practice speaking" by reading aloud some artificial dialogues or questions in pairs or groups. The course wraps up with a written grammar exam or quizzes.

I expect verbal communication to be integral to any language courses but so far, the FSL courses place a lot of emphasis on transmitting grammar knowledge to the students only. They make sure that all the students are on par and at the same level in terms of grammar but neglect their verbal development. I don't understand why teachers don't promote more interaction in class and encourage the students to speak more (instead of the teachers ). After all, I would think that the classroom is the best place to practice communication for beginners.

[Jukka Aho]

Most of the class time is spent by the teacher reciting grammar lessons from the textbook and handouts. Then you do some fill-in-the-blank written exercises in class where you conjugate words and sentences based on the rules you just learned. After that, the students take turn reading their answers aloud (with incorrect pronunciation that often goes unchecked by the teacher). In the little time that's left, you get to "practice speaking" by reading aloud some artificial dialogues or questions in pairs or groups. The course wraps up with a written grammar exam or quizzes.

Sounds like a typical foreign language class in a random Finnish school. :(

I guess you have no way of changing the methods used in the course. You need extra-curricular activites to supplement the grammar and rote learning. Try finding songs, movies, books, TV shows in Finnish which would interest you. Or maybe register to a Finnish-speaking online discussion forum on an interesting topic, or join a Finnish chatroom (IRC channel), or go to an arts & crafts or whatever class among Finnish-speakers, or join some amateur sports team or whatnot. Maybe the teacher on that class you're attending to could even give you some suggestions and useful hints if you'd approach him/her from that angle - trying to get some extra material to work on.