Is Finnish a dead language?

[Karhunkoski]

I guess you have no way of changing the methods used in the course. You need extra-curricular activites to supplement the grammar and rote learning. Try finding songs, movies, books, TV shows in Finnish which would interest you. Or maybe register to a Finnish-speaking online discussion forum on an interesting topic, or join a Finnish chatroom (IRC channel), or go to an arts & crafts or whatever class among Finnish-speakers, or join some amateur sports team or whatnot. Maybe the teacher on that class you're attending to could even give you some suggestions and useful hints if you'd approach him/her from that angle - trying to get some extra material to work on.

I think it's great that you try to give advice and help Jukka , but,

a) Finnish-speaking activities are not much use without at least "conversational Finnish". Yes you can hear the language, but you can do that with the TV or music. Also, the Finnish that Finns will use in their hobby time is totally different to the Finnish being taught on the course. This just confuses newer students and increases frustration.

b) Approaching teachers to suggest "something different" is usually taked as criticism (we all know that Finns don't take criticism very well, a fact not a swipe). I rememeber many years ago asking a Finnish language teacher if she thought the method she was using was the best way to learn the language. The reply was, "no of course it isn't, but this is the way I am told to teach and they pay be for it".


Language teaching in Finland is (and has been for decades), pretty ineffective. It concentrates too much on grammar, lacks speaking activities and at least in earlier days, it was over-critical of mistakes (so everyone kept their trap shut unless they could form a perfectly spoken sentence). Most people know all this, but nothing every changes. And that's the real crux of the issue - Finns are a passive bunch, they'll gripe and moan about "known problems", but the "accepting" culture means that few will challenge the status quo. Even if someone does manage to make small changes, they're seen as a boat-rocker and the larger group applies pressure for status quo ante, because it's easy and known and takes less effort.

[Jukka Aho]

I guess you have no way of changing the methods used in the course. You need extra-curricular activites to supplement the grammar and rote learning. Try finding songs, movies, books, TV shows in Finnish which would interest you. Or maybe register to a Finnish-speaking online discussion forum on an interesting topic, or join a Finnish chatroom (IRC channel), or go to an arts & crafts or whatever class among Finnish-speakers, or join some amateur sports team or whatnot. Maybe the teacher on that class you're attending to could even give you some suggestions and useful hints if you'd approach him/her from that angle - trying to get some extra material to work on.

I think it's great that you try to give advice and help Jukka :D , but,

a) Finnish-speaking activities are not much use without at least "conversational Finnish". Yes you can hear the language, but you can do that with the TV or music. Also, the Finnish that Finns will use in their hobby time is totally different to the Finnish being taught on the course. This just confuses newer students and increases frustration.

b) Approaching teachers to suggest "something different" is usually taked as criticism (we all know that Finns don't take criticism very well, a fact not a swipe). I rememeber many years ago asking a Finnish language teacher if she thought the method she was using was the best way to learn the language. The reply was, "no of course it isn't, but this is the way I am told to teach and they pay be for it".

I never suggested “approaching teachers to suggest something different”. Actually, to the contrary: I said “I guess you have no way of changing the methods used in the course” which is pretty much the opposite of that idea.

As for hobby-style activities, some basic level of “conversational Finnish” is required, of course. (“Minä Tarzan, sinä Jane.”)

[Karhunkoski]

I never suggested “approaching teachers to suggest something different”. Actually, to the contrary: I said “I guess you have no way of changing the methods used in the course” which is pretty much the opposite of that idea.

Yup, but you did say,

Maybe the teacher on that class you're attending to could even give you some suggestions and useful hints if you'd approach him/her from that angle - trying to get some extra material to work on.

Which I (maybe incorrectly?), interpreted as asking the teacher to suggest something different to (and outside of) their usual prescription of robotic language teaching.


Anyways, IMVHO the problem is inherent within the system and until people change from being "critical observers" to "activists", nothing will change. But unfortunately "activism" is not encouraged within Finland, so the majority of future "Finnish language students" (intentional ambiguity ) will continue to suffer in the same way. As learning the language is vital for effective integration (and to help prevent future immigrant-related problems), I feel just a little angry about the whole situation.

[fanty]

You people are forgetting that after you've learnt the grammar, it's EXTREMELY easy to develop conversational skills and to build vocabulary by reading. Grammar-focused teaching may not be the most rounded one, but it isn't misguided or incorrect.

[Karhunkoski]

You people are forgetting that after you've learnt the grammar, it's EXTREMELY easy to develop conversational skills and to build vocabulary by reading.

Have you been through a Finnish-language training programme in Finland?

[kalmisto]

You people are forgetting that after you've learnt the grammar, it's EXTREMELY easy to develop conversational skills and to build vocabulary by reading...

Even if you knew Finnish grammar very well it would not be extremely easy for you to develop Finnish conversational skills. Finnish grammar is very complicated and if you think about the grammar rules too much your speech will be VERY slow. And I do not understand how knowing the grammar would make it easier for you to build vocabulary.

To build vocabulary mor effectively you might like to try the memrise method : http://www.memrise.com/welcome
( it´s free of charge )
Finnish on memrise : http://www.memrise.com/topic/finnish

more info on memrise :
http://thenextweb.com/apps/2011/06/20/w ... a-picture/

[alexbk]

In a classroom of 20 students, the teacher's options are limited. She has to keep everyone busy, so it's either pair/group conversation excercises (which might be frustrating if your pair happens to be much above or below your level), or the teacher demonstrating how things work in Finnish, and then having everyone repeat that. The better teachers circulate the class during pair excercises and chime in to the conversations, but there's only so much attention she can give to you individually.

If you want anything alternative or advanced or modern or focusing on communication, you have to study in a small group (which will cost you dearly and is difficult to arrange), or get a conversation buddy (whose' only answer to your questions would be 'that's the way things are, don't ask me why') and do the rest in self-study mode.

I've seen a few people in the classes I attended who are able to hold a fluid conversation, but can't write or read a moderately complex sentence to save their live. You pretty much have to teach them grammar from the very beginning (i.e. kpt-system, strong and weak stem and so on).

I do think that your success in developing communication skills ultimately depends not on the teaching method, or how good the teacher is or anything like that, but on how much time you are willing to regularly invest outside of the classroom. Not to say the classroom is useless: it gives you structure and direction, and organizes things neatly in your head. At least that's my experience. Sure it would be nice to learn the language the way native speakers learn it - by immersing 24/7 into listening and imitation and later reading things going from simple to complex, but we're all adults and none of us have that much time. So shortcuts need to be taken, which means learning grammar and doing those endless, mindless 'drilling' excercises

For the record, I've attended University of Helsinki courses levels 1 to 6 (I'm nearing completion of level 6 now), attending classes and doing homework in a near-maniacal way, getting excellent scores at all of the final tests (I had also passed YKI keskitaso at the end of august with grade 3 in all parts except reading comprehension where I got 4). It was only around level 5 course that I began to be able to read typical Hesari articles comfortably - previously I simply didn't know enough grammar to parse the sentences correctly.

[alexbk]

You people are forgetting that after you've learnt the grammar, it's EXTREMELY easy to develop conversational skills and to build vocabulary by reading...

Even if you knew Finnish grammar very well it would not be extremely easy for you to develop Finnish conversational skills. Finnish grammar is very complicated and if you think about the grammar rules too much your speech will be VERY slow.

At first, yes it will be. However, it gives you a starting point about how to put a sentence together. The more you do it, the less you think about grammar, to the point where it becomes automatic

And I do not understand how knowing the grammar would make it easier for you to build vocabulary.

Vocabulary is not just about having a translation for the word's basic form in your head. Unlike in English, you also need to know how all the derived forms happen, and you also need to know the proper way to put it together with other words. There's a reason "Tarkista tästä" is such a popular book - it fills in where dictionaries fall short

[Rob A.]

In a classroom of 20 students, the teacher's options are limited. She has to keep everyone busy, so it's either pair/group conversation excercises (which might be frustrating if your pair happens to be much above or below your level), or the teacher demonstrating how things work in Finnish, and then having everyone repeat that. The better teachers circulate the class during pair excercises and chime in to the conversations, but there's only so much attention she can give to you individually.

If you want anything alternative or advanced or modern or focusing on communication, you have to study in a small group (which will cost you dearly and is difficult to arrange), or get a conversation buddy (whose' only answer to your questions would be 'that's the way things are, don't ask me why') and do the rest in self-study mode.

I've seen a few people in the classes I attended who are able to hold a fluid conversation, but can't write or read a moderately complex sentence to save their live. You pretty much have to teach them grammar from the very beginning (i.e. kpt-system, strong and weak stem and so on).

I do think that your success in developing communication skills ultimately depends not on the teaching method, or how good the teacher is or anything like that, but on how much time you are willing to regularly invest outside of the classroom. Not to say the classroom is useless: it gives you structure and direction, and organizes things neatly in your head. At least that's my experience. Sure it would be nice to learn the language the way native speakers learn it - by immersing 24/7 into listening and imitation and later reading things going from simple to complex, but we're all adults and none of us have that much time. So shortcuts need to be taken, which means learning grammar and doing those endless, mindless 'drilling' excercises

For the record, I've attended University of Helsinki courses levels 1 to 6 (I'm nearing completion of level 6 now), attending classes and doing homework in a near-maniacal way, getting excellent scores at all of the final tests (I had also passed YKI keskitaso at the end of august with grade 3 in all parts except reading comprehension where I got 4). It was only around level 5 course that I began to be able to read typical Hesari articles comfortably - previously I simply didn't know enough grammar to parse the sentences correctly.

This is pretty much the same as my view on this... different students always seem to have different levels of proficiency, different levels of motivation, and some always seem to try to dominate the conversations...all of this creates other types of problems and frustrations for language learners...

In the courses I've taken...I think it's three now...there were people who seemed to be able to speak in a simple way, but couldn't read or write very well, or understand the grammar explanations...this surprised me at first as I seemed to have the opposite "issue"..... But it became obvious why... Typically...I think always, actually...these were adult children of Finnish immigrants. They had heard the language at home as small children... Then attending school had shifted things mainly to English....... Finnish was, in a sense, their "first language"...but it's development had been "arrested" at a very young age....

I think blaming the teacher or the system is a bit of a cop out... An excuse for one's own lack of motivation. My guess is that even in the OP's class there will be students who don't share his/her attitude, but recognize that language learning is a commitment they have to make, and attending classes augments this process...it's not the "whole deal"....

And as for me..figuring out the grammar has [Edit: NOT] been terribly difficult, but vocabulary is definitely a problem... and add to this the "shapeshifting" nature of Finnish words With other west European languages the Latin influence is often enough to give you some clue what a word might mean...at least with reading...or very slow paced conversations...but much less likely with Finnish.... Even some words that started out as Germanic or Latinate look very different in Finnish.... I encountered the word talli the other day.... It was obivous once I looked it up, but not before ..."stable"...from the Germanic word, "stall"... The word has a slightly different sense in Finnish...the translation for "stall" is apparently pilttuu...

[AldenG]

Unlike in English, you also need to know how all the derived forms happen,

Then again, many words in Finnish -- and a large majority of words in day-to-day language -- are almost always used in a tiny handful of their potential forms. Perhaps surprisingly, this also seems to apply (with more complication) to high or specialized conexts for use of the language. So practicing the ability to manufacture (or even to recognize) all those forms is probably misplaced energy. And knowing the words plus the grammar often gives almost no clue to the accepted but often byzantine way of expressing any given notion.

Thus I think the strongest progress will be made with the greatest emphasis on phraseology, supported by a core vocabulary introduced in phases and by just-in-time grammar and morphology (word-formation). Not in a simplistic tourist-guide fashion but in a sophisticated, carefully constructed and progressive fashion that steadily but incrementally rehearses and builds on what has been learned up to any given point.

So instead of lot and lots of grammar with a little practice on the side to ensure one has learned something, it is lots and lots of carefully guided practice with just enough grammar to make it all fit together.

Getting the student bootstrapped as quickly as possible, so that he or she is functioning in real Finnish on some level, will hasten the later mastery of nuts and bolts first learned in an approximate fashion. Almost any detail of anything can be learned better when the student understands it on some level as part of a functioning whole. Instead of teaching about something the student doesn't know (the Finnish language), teach the language itself in a reduced but functioning subset, and relate the pieces being taught to that whole.

Still, a new student doesn't have to completely grok kuluttua, and know how to make that form out of any verb, or even be able to state the first infinitive, to constructively understand and use hetken kuluttua. To teach too much how-and-why too early is merely to throw already struggling students an anchor. Instead use that easily grasped idiom as a reference point for introducing (at an appropriate time) other places to use the -ttua form . . . etc. That is learning by analogy and imitation, which we are already biologically programmed to do with language. Analysis is imposed. And learned (or often not). Imitation is inborn.

My approach multiplies the work for the curriculum developer and sometimes for the teacher, too, of course. But if this damn economy will only get back on track within my lifetime, I'll prove that this approach, well implemented, is the most effective one for students of Finnish.

I think reform will come from outside the system, i.e. private classes, more likely than within.

Still, nothing will ever teach Finnish to the kinds of disruptive cut-ups Kutittaa describes (in a different thread) as ruining his classes. Some languages just ARE more complicated. And while it can make a difference which language(s) you already know, there IS such a thing as intrinsic complexity in a language. And Finnish is just plain a lot more complex than, say, Swedish. There are lot more details to get right or wrong in any given paragraph.

[AldenG]

And when I say "first learned in an approximate fashion," I don't mean that students should be using approximately-correct endings and sentences. (There's plenty of that already!) I mean that knowing all about why an expression takes a particular form, or even knowing the name of the construct, is less important than learning to use the expression itself. Appreciation of sub-surface complexities can mature later, as the student absorbs other similar, identical, or contrasting examples.

[Jukka Aho]

Yup, but you did say,

Maybe the teacher on that class you're attending to could even give you some suggestions and useful hints if you'd approach him/her from that angle - trying to get some extra material to work on.

Which I (maybe incorrectly?), interpreted as asking the teacher to suggest something different to (and outside of) their usual prescription of robotic language teaching. :?

Usually teachers are keen to provide suggestions for extra-curricular material... if you, for instance, approach them right after the class when they're picking up their things and they have the time to chat a bit. I've never encountered a language teacher who would take offence at students showing genuine interest in the language they're teaching or somehow interpret a student's willingness to use extra material/activities on their free time as being detrimental to their ways of teaching (or a display of criticism, for that matter.)

[alexbk]

Unlike in English, you also need to know how all the derived forms happen,

My approach multiplies the work for the curriculum developer and sometimes for the teacher, too, of course. But if this damn economy will only get back on track within my lifetime, I'll prove that this approach, well implemented, is the most effective one for students of Finnish.

I think that's more or less the approach they already use in Helsinki University. If you look at their objectives and contents, you will see that grammar is introduced in a very step by step way, and the emphasis is on proper, complete sentences (at first very simple ones of course).
http://www.helsinki.fi/kksc/language.se ... ukset.html

[Pursuivant]

I don't know what is the difficulty with pronounciation. You only need to learn the letter sounds once - unlike in all other languages. Brainwashing your language cells with "bland" and "bland II" should get you to forget all the funny foreignness... if theres one a then its 'a' and if theres two its 'aa'

[kalmisto]

I don't know what is the difficulty with pronounciation. You only need to learn the letter sounds once - unlike in all other languages. Brainwashing your language cells with "bland" and "bland II" should get you to forget all the funny foreignness... if theres one a then its 'a' and if theres two its 'aa'

The Big Bang Theory Sheldon learning Finnish :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opw6e7It ... re=related

and a 4 year old American girl reading handwritten Finnish :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW3TxL9O ... ure=fvwrel