schooling and language issues

[Godzilla]

Hi,

I'm moving to Finland with my family next year, and we have to make some decisions about our kids schooling. We're moving to Jyväskylä from the Netherlands, but we're an American-Finnish family, and we lived in Finland for a few years a few years ago. Our children, who will be 6 and 8 when we move next year have spent the better part of their lives growing up in the Netherlands, though. The children speak English, Finnish and Dutch. With each other, they use Finnish grammar with a mix of English and Dutch vocabulary, but can readily switch to more or less "clean" versions of any of the three languages depending on context. My oldest can read and write English well (they start early here, and he's going to an international school) but the youngest is more comfortable with Dutch (and doesn't read or write yet). Their Finnish skills have been getting worse, so we are worried about that.

Jyväskylä has a bi-lingual school, and we are debating whether to buy a house close to it specifically to make sure they can attend there. However, the program is aimed mainly at children who are Finnish and start with no English at all. They also have an English-speaking group, but the Finnish lessons from that are insufficient to produce a high level of Finnish skill. We might also just put them in a regular Finnish school, and not worry about the English. This might be better than putting them in a school where they will be taught English at too low a level, which might be boring. On the other hand, they teach actual subjects in English, and as long as the subjects are interesting maybe this isn't a problem.

Does anyone have experience with schools like this?

We've also read that for pupils with a native level in a language, it is possible to get tutoring in that language. We are wondering whether we could get Dutch instruction for our children that way. Anyone have any experience with doing this?

[Rosamunda]

You seem to have a pretty good grasp of the situation. Yes, I would recommend putting them into a Finnish school for their basic education. And I wouldn't worry about them speaking better English than their friends/teacher. As long as you stimulate their English skills at home there is no reason why they shouldn't be fluent for age in both English and Finnish (and Dutch).

And yes, you probably would qualify for Dutch on the mother-tongue tuition programme but it will only be 90 minutes a week (and there are minimum class sizes, so nothing is guaranteed). The classes tend to contain children of different ages and levels of fluency.

[Godzilla]

Thanks for the response. I am, however, worried about their English not being at native level, as my younger child's clearly isn't, and neither speaks Finnish at a native level. I'm not sure there is an ideal solution to this problem, though.

Their Dutch will deteriorate, I am sure, regardless of what we do, since we don't speak it at home, but we'll do what we can for it.

[Rosamunda]

My younger two lost their French after we moved here because we had to focus on them learning Finnish. Ten years down the road and their English is native (it is their mother-tongue even though they didn't speak it when we arrived here ). The younger two have pretty good Finnish (but not even close to native), one is on an international programme (IB) but in the Finnish mother tongue group and the other is on a Finnish- speaking lukio course (combined with a vocational programme), but did his comprehensive schooling on an international programme (ie in English). I have HUGE regrets we didn't put the younger two into Finnish primary school when we arrived. They have really had it tough trying to learn Finnish.

If your younger child is only 5 there may be many reasons why his/her English is not fluent for age (and multi-linguism may be one of those reasons). But I wouldn't worry too much about it (especially if it's a boy). At that age none of mine could speak a word of English (and I'm British ).

[Aino]

Hi Godzilla, Based on my experience after 9 months in Finland I would recommend choosing a Finnish school. We chose a bilingual class for our 7-year-old (we are a British-Finnish family) but I'm not sure if it was the right decision in the long run. It's a lovely school and he really likes it but from the language point of view he's not gaining anything he doesn't get at home anyway. Compared with our previous experience the subjects lack content but I'm not sure if it's because the children are taught in a foreign language or if it's just the way the curriculum is built here. They do learn to read, write and maths but very little about the world. Hopefully they will catch up in not too distant future. Good luck with your move!

[CH]

They do learn to read, write and maths but very little about the world. Hopefully they will catch up in not too distant future.

That's what grade 1 and 2 concentrate on, really. "Everything else" starts in grade 3.

[Upphew]

if it's just the way the curriculum is built here. They do learn to read, write and maths but very little about the world.

http://www.oph.fi/english/sources_of_in ... _education

[onkko]

My younger two lost their French after we moved here because we had to focus on them learning Finnish. Ten years down the road and their English is native (it is their mother-tongue even though they didn't speak it when we arrived here ). The younger two have pretty good Finnish (but not even close to native), one is on an international programme (IB) but in the Finnish mother tongue group and the other is on a Finnish- speaking lukio course (combined with a vocational programme), but did his comprehensive schooling on an international programme (ie in English). I have HUGE regrets we didn't put the younger two into Finnish primary school when we arrived. They have really had it tough trying to learn Finnish.

If your younger child is only 5 there may be many reasons why his/her English is not fluent for age (and multi-linguism may be one of those reasons). But I wouldn't worry too much about it (especially if it's a boy). At that age none of mine could speak a word of English (and I'm British ).

Listen to her, its hard but worth it. Finnish is what your kids and you need if you plan to live in here.

Offtopic but wasnt that you i hinted that army does stuff where even young are allowed? How that go and can you recommend that to others?

[Rosamunda]

A year or two ago my eldest went on a "survival" hike in Nuuksiö which I think was organised by the army or some other affiliated organisation. The weather was bad so they cancelled it at the last minute but my son went anyway and there were a couple of others who turned up, so they did a bit of hiking, grilled some sausages, camped out a came home. It was a bit of a disappointment really. But he is applying to the Border Guards for his military service, really keen to get onto something a bit more challenging then the regular conscription. He has made huge progress in Finnish, I'm amazed - but I feel guilty that he had such a tough time. I feel it could have been easier if the right structures had been in place.

[Godzilla]

Listen to her, its hard but worth it. Finnish is what your kids and you need if you plan to live in here.

My children DO speak Finnish, and we will definitely put them in a Finnish school. The question is whether to go with a bilingual Finnish-English school or with a monoligual Finnish school, given that they also speak English.

Penelope's and Aino's advice is very helpful, but it would be good to hear what experiences others have had. If we don't worry about getting them into the bilingual school, it does make buying a house much easier.

[Keplerinvaimo]

This is our experience: Australian-Finnish family, son had no exposure to Finnish language before 2 1/2 years, he's 100% bilingual now. We took the bi-lingual route for ala-aste. The school he attends has Finnish line for local children and bi-lingual line.

The language split over the whole six years works out at 50/50. Grade one concentrated on teaching basics: numbers, letters, reading, writing etc in Finnish first and progressing to English. Grade 2 continued building foundations. 3rd and 4th grade started moving towards more use of English in the curriculum. Grades 5 and 6 have native speaker for class teacher and the majority of lessons are in English.

The majority of the pupils in the bilingual classes at our school are either from Finnish families who have live abroad or where the children have atttended English day-care and kindergarten. I would say less than half of our class are from two language families. There is a test to get to the class (even if you live in the catchment area) to ensure that all the class are starting at roughly the same level.

Plusses and minuses:
+ all class teachers have good English teacher, many have had some teaching experience abroad;
+ good language support all the way through;
- changing class teacher; maybe this 'normal' for bilingual classes. Same school, Finnish line class teacher remains the same year 1 through 6. We had class teacher go for maternity leave, return and then go again, substitutes, substitutes for the substitutes... finally we've had the same teacher for 2 years and the class is cohesive (finally!).
- neighbourhood issues (this probably doesn't apply so much outside Helsinki). As the class comes from all over east Helsinki, there is less afterschool socialising than if everyone lived in the immdediate neighbourhood. Our son has no friends in the immediate neighbourhood, instead they are spread through east Helsinki. Thank goodness for the metro!!!
(Minor minus: not all the teachers have good English skills as they firstly Finnish class teachers, was small issue for me in the early days not being able to explain myself adequately)

I've noticed that the playground language is predominately Finnish. Don't forget that your children will hear Finnish outside the school yard also, especially if they take up any hobbies or group activities. Our lad swims and I'm pretty certain not ONE word of English escapes his lips when he's anywhere near the pool! The Finnish will gets lots of support, the English you'll need to work on I guess it depends on how much you want to support the English outside the home.

We have to decide early in the new year about ylä-aste, and right now we're not sure if we will go bi-lingual or not. That is less to do with language skills and more to do with his learning difficulties with math.

We could go three ways: test for bi-lingual and see how that goes. Alternatively we could send him to the local Finnish school. Option number 3 would be find a school that suits his other skills and temperament and apply (and probably also be tested for...)

The ylä-aste currently offer Finnish line, bi-lingual line and then English line. (I've been informed that the whole class are going there, even though the test is in early spring and results come some time later - nothing like a 12 year old to exaggerate. Also some of the parents I've been chatting with would dispute this version of events...). According to some of my Finnish friends, the local Finnish school is 'burdened' with the reputation of not having enough Finnish students. I really don't know just exactly what that means when it comes to day to day teaching. My Finnish husband thinks it might NOT be a bad thing for our son!

That's our experience so far The Jyväskylä school sounds a little different to this. Which classes do they teach in English? Our son's favourite is History, it's taught in English and 6th grade has had a lot of project work which he thrives on.

Good luck!
Heather

Sorry, I didn't realise how long this was. Hopefully it makes sense, PM me if you have any specific questions. It's not easy this bi-lingual business!

[Godzilla]

Thanks Keplerinvaimo! That's a very helpful explanation. I guess you didn't feel that your son wasn't frusterated by the the English being at too low a level? That's my main concern, that as a native-level English speaker, the English taught courses would be tedious for my son, who is 7, will be 8, and will be starting at Grade 2. My daughter, who is two years younger, doesn't have as strong of English, as her schooling (they start school at 4 in NL) has been in Dutch, and might benefit from it.

[Cod]

..here's me wondering what's the point of your kids of being fluent in english when there's a 50-50 chance that they will eventually live overseas - married to someone from yet another language group, and speak 1500 word broken english in business all day anyway....or am I being silly - no?

[EP]

what's the point of your kids of being fluent in english

Because that is their mother tongue?

[Cod]

..does it really work - I mean, is it really worth the effort of trying to bring them up so that they actually get Monty Python and can bring the house down by retelling it - if it then means that they're short changed on Finnish?