This week the Economist has published a prize-winning essay by Jukka Rislakki on Finnish neutrality during the Cold War.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/easterna ... telligence
and also an article on Sweden's defence options:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/easterna ... nd-baltics
Secret History
Re: Secret History
The Cold War is over.
Notice that Russia and the United States now have a cooperative relationship.
Notice that Communist China and the United States now have a cooperative relationship.
Yes, there still are minor disagreements. But yes, even the best of friends can disagree.
Notice that Russia and the United States now have a cooperative relationship.
Notice that Communist China and the United States now have a cooperative relationship.
Yes, there still are minor disagreements. But yes, even the best of friends can disagree.
Re: Secret History
The Cold War has only moved into cyberspace.
And the U.S. does not appear to be winning against those two entities, although it's always possible the appearance is an artful dodge.
And the U.S. does not appear to be winning against those two entities, although it's always possible the appearance is an artful dodge.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.
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Re: Secret History
Didn't Great Britain and the Nazis and Russia and the Nazis have agreements in place just before WW2?tuulen wrote:The Cold War is over.
Notice that Russia and the United States now have a cooperative relationship.
Notice that Communist China and the United States now have a cooperative relationship.
Yes, there still are minor disagreements. But yes, even the best of friends can disagree.
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.
Re: Secret History
Well, it was a story about history.tuulen wrote:The Cold War is over.
What specific areas of co-operation I should notice? There does not seem to be that much of it...Notice that Russia and the United States now have a cooperative relationship.
Re: Secret History
Today, the United States depends on Russia for rocket travel into space, to the International Space Station.
Today, the United States has borrowed much money from China.
China, Russia and the United States are now beginning to work with each other.
That is a good thing.
Today, the United States has borrowed much money from China.
China, Russia and the United States are now beginning to work with each other.
That is a good thing.
Re: Secret History
As things are, that is an expensive hobby with very little significance.tuulen wrote:Today, the United States depends on Russia for rocket travel into space, to the International Space Station.
Yes, China is keeping the value of its own currency depressed to keep the trade balance as tilted as possible, same time hurting global economy by keeping its interest rates high instead of fighting inflation by letting its currency appreciate. That is hardly 'co-operation'.Today, the United States has borrowed much money from China.
Re: Secret History
...disappointed 
I was hoping some of you would actually read the essay and give your opinions on it... As Rip correctly pointed out, the writer is a historian. His essay was awarded the prize by the Virginia Military Institute http://www.vmi.edu/Archives/Adams_Cente ... 2010-2011/
I was hoping some of you would actually read the essay and give your opinions on it... As Rip correctly pointed out, the writer is a historian. His essay was awarded the prize by the Virginia Military Institute http://www.vmi.edu/Archives/Adams_Cente ... 2010-2011/
Re: Secret History
I did read the whole essay as soon as I saw your post.
I don't have much perspective that would enable me to add or comment on the political historical level, so I left that for "the professionals" as people sometimes say over on Kielikoulu.
On the personal level, there were two particular occasions in the 80's when I was pretty sure I detected myself being tailed through Helsinki during the day. And I'm not prone to that kind of impression, nor have I ever had it elsewhere or on other occasions than those two. If anything, I am probably a bit oblivious to that kind of thing and it might have happened more times that that. (Not that I'm 100% certain it happened even on those two.)
Foreigners were less common in Finland then. And because I worked such long hours and well into the evening and weekends (it was an IT startup), I had what must have seemed a peculiar habit of taking several hours of the sunny part of the day during the dark part of the year to be outside and downtown, mostly on foot. Maybe that looked suspicious to someone on one side or another. Plus I had presented (signed up by my employer, who didn't know how I hated that kind of thing) at a few technical conferences with heavy East-European sponsorship, though again I was oblivious to that sort of consideration. I didn't even understand the sponsorship until there was a reception in the basement entertainment facilities of a Russian computer company. (Russian computer companies -- i mean who knew there even was such a thing at that time? Or even now.)
Then again, all three (or more) sides used to do stuff like following people almost for training or practice back then. Helsinki wasn't Vienna but it was still a hub of sorts for clandestine east-west contacts.
Or it might have been agents from Kielitoimisto investigating reports of non-conformant usage of the partitive or of participial constructions, one can never really be sure about these things. I know I was a serial deviant, particularly with the former of those two.
There was a later occasion when a Russian researcher (who looked comically like David McCallum as Ilya Kuryakin on The Man from U.N.C.L.E.) requested an interview with my gf and me about some work we were doing with novel instructional PC software at an educational institution. It all seemed quite strange to us. He was a pleasant but seemingly high-stressed fellow, even by standards of the time and place, when restless jaws and nervous tics and chronic finger tremors were more common in the older generation than they seem to be today. (Maybe coffee consumption has gone down since then.) This guy was on a whole other level beyond that. It really drove home the reality of living under a totalitarian regime. We could never quite figure out exactly what he wanted to learn from us nor whether he knew anything about the subject already. We could have been more helpful if he had been more revealing. The thing that sticks in mind is that we could have devoted the whole day, really, if we'd known what he wanted and we felt it was productive. So at one point we asked him if he had time for some activity, I don't remember exactly what, and he said that sure, he had the whole day. Or something like that, and his English was only so-so and he had no Finnish. But half an hour later, we asked if he'd like to go across the street for lunch and then resume. But at THAT point, he was suddenly totally out of time. We did know he had a driver/minder parked outside.
So who knows what the hell that was? If you want to go all pulp fiction, he could have been planting a bug or keeping us distracted and located while someone else did so elsewhere. Except that there was nothing in our lives and nothing at that institution that could remotely have been of any political, military, or other strategic interest. Scarcely even of national-economic interest. And such a thing wouldn't have been done in such a noticeable way at all.
He didn't seem to know our field and didn't seem to learn or even be interested in what we were showing him at his own request. He didn't ask any questions that would have revealed anything about who we were, what we thought, our backgrounds, etc. I suppose the whole interview could have been some kind of pretext for him to visit Helsinki, but the Soviets never really needed pretexts to send people to Helsinki. (Maybe to get them back...) Or someone back in the Rodina could have said "We must learning computer and teach; find me resircher send to Helsinki." The guy probably was some kind of politico-academic because he seemed too nervous to be from one of the security services, who would have had more freedom and confidence than he did. He was too unpolished to be diplomatic, even from the east bloc. This guy had permission, we concluded, to visit our place of work but absolutely not to go anywhere else with us. He was on a very short leash. I'm sure he had to file a complete report, but he didn't really get anything of substance TO report. Then again, that's what the Soviet machinery was toward the end, a giant, crude but politically complex machine running on fumes and producing nothing, but full of written reports to the contrary.
The only "political" contact I ever had in Finland was happening to meet then-PM Kalevi Sorsa and his wife out skiing on the ice near Seurasaari one New Year's Day.
I don't have much perspective that would enable me to add or comment on the political historical level, so I left that for "the professionals" as people sometimes say over on Kielikoulu.
On the personal level, there were two particular occasions in the 80's when I was pretty sure I detected myself being tailed through Helsinki during the day. And I'm not prone to that kind of impression, nor have I ever had it elsewhere or on other occasions than those two. If anything, I am probably a bit oblivious to that kind of thing and it might have happened more times that that. (Not that I'm 100% certain it happened even on those two.)
Foreigners were less common in Finland then. And because I worked such long hours and well into the evening and weekends (it was an IT startup), I had what must have seemed a peculiar habit of taking several hours of the sunny part of the day during the dark part of the year to be outside and downtown, mostly on foot. Maybe that looked suspicious to someone on one side or another. Plus I had presented (signed up by my employer, who didn't know how I hated that kind of thing) at a few technical conferences with heavy East-European sponsorship, though again I was oblivious to that sort of consideration. I didn't even understand the sponsorship until there was a reception in the basement entertainment facilities of a Russian computer company. (Russian computer companies -- i mean who knew there even was such a thing at that time? Or even now.)
Then again, all three (or more) sides used to do stuff like following people almost for training or practice back then. Helsinki wasn't Vienna but it was still a hub of sorts for clandestine east-west contacts.
Or it might have been agents from Kielitoimisto investigating reports of non-conformant usage of the partitive or of participial constructions, one can never really be sure about these things. I know I was a serial deviant, particularly with the former of those two.
There was a later occasion when a Russian researcher (who looked comically like David McCallum as Ilya Kuryakin on The Man from U.N.C.L.E.) requested an interview with my gf and me about some work we were doing with novel instructional PC software at an educational institution. It all seemed quite strange to us. He was a pleasant but seemingly high-stressed fellow, even by standards of the time and place, when restless jaws and nervous tics and chronic finger tremors were more common in the older generation than they seem to be today. (Maybe coffee consumption has gone down since then.) This guy was on a whole other level beyond that. It really drove home the reality of living under a totalitarian regime. We could never quite figure out exactly what he wanted to learn from us nor whether he knew anything about the subject already. We could have been more helpful if he had been more revealing. The thing that sticks in mind is that we could have devoted the whole day, really, if we'd known what he wanted and we felt it was productive. So at one point we asked him if he had time for some activity, I don't remember exactly what, and he said that sure, he had the whole day. Or something like that, and his English was only so-so and he had no Finnish. But half an hour later, we asked if he'd like to go across the street for lunch and then resume. But at THAT point, he was suddenly totally out of time. We did know he had a driver/minder parked outside.
So who knows what the hell that was? If you want to go all pulp fiction, he could have been planting a bug or keeping us distracted and located while someone else did so elsewhere. Except that there was nothing in our lives and nothing at that institution that could remotely have been of any political, military, or other strategic interest. Scarcely even of national-economic interest. And such a thing wouldn't have been done in such a noticeable way at all.
He didn't seem to know our field and didn't seem to learn or even be interested in what we were showing him at his own request. He didn't ask any questions that would have revealed anything about who we were, what we thought, our backgrounds, etc. I suppose the whole interview could have been some kind of pretext for him to visit Helsinki, but the Soviets never really needed pretexts to send people to Helsinki. (Maybe to get them back...) Or someone back in the Rodina could have said "We must learning computer and teach; find me resircher send to Helsinki." The guy probably was some kind of politico-academic because he seemed too nervous to be from one of the security services, who would have had more freedom and confidence than he did. He was too unpolished to be diplomatic, even from the east bloc. This guy had permission, we concluded, to visit our place of work but absolutely not to go anywhere else with us. He was on a very short leash. I'm sure he had to file a complete report, but he didn't really get anything of substance TO report. Then again, that's what the Soviet machinery was toward the end, a giant, crude but politically complex machine running on fumes and producing nothing, but full of written reports to the contrary.
The only "political" contact I ever had in Finland was happening to meet then-PM Kalevi Sorsa and his wife out skiing on the ice near Seurasaari one New Year's Day.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.
Re: Secret History
Oh...don't be disappointed...penelope wrote:...disappointed
I was hoping some of you would actually read the essay and give your opinions on it... As Rip correctly pointed out, the writer is a historian. His essay was awarded the prize by the Virginia Military Institute http://www.vmi.edu/Archives/Adams_Cente ... 2010-2011/
I was quite pleased to see this article. I read about half of it and was going to finish before I said anything....but I've been just so darned busy at work these days... Anyway, this I think clearly shows the reasons Finland had such a fine line to walk during the Cold War. I think we tend to underestimate these days just how precarious things were in that era. And I think subsequent events have shown just how concerned the Soviets were about the motives of the Western Powers. In other words they realized just how vulnerable they were. And the US has shown just how willing they have been to invade other countries, if they thought they could prevail.
Russian history is full of these external threats.... and the consequences for Russia have been significant.... Finland was caught between the proverbial "rock and a hard place" and I guess still is. This is why I tend to think that future generations of Finns will probably appreciate Kekkonen's "realpolitik" more than the current generation seems to ...
Re: Secret History
Interesting. I new some of the stuff, other parts not (even though its apparently jut question what I did not know, the subject has been known in public for quite some time: http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Finlan ... 6152567479 ). It had been my understanding that while Sweden had been secretly under the NATO umbrella, Finland had been outside it. I don't have the qualifications to judge the issue.
There is a "grammatical" error (as a factual error it would be pretty much unforgivable) in the text. In 1965 Sutela was not a general, let alone chief of the Defence forces. I wonder how much he told or wrote down in his later years about the co-operation, including what actually was known by the political leadership (= Kekkonen). He died month ago, and obviously anybody who ever was his superior (except Koivisto in beginning of 1980's) died long before.
There is a "grammatical" error (as a factual error it would be pretty much unforgivable) in the text. In 1965 Sutela was not a general, let alone chief of the Defence forces. I wonder how much he told or wrote down in his later years about the co-operation, including what actually was known by the political leadership (= Kekkonen). He died month ago, and obviously anybody who ever was his superior (except Koivisto in beginning of 1980's) died long before.
Re: Secret History
Finland played a role at the start of the Venona Project, too.
And while the author doesn't mention it, the US had a big role in covertly funding the post-war Finnish labor union movement as a safety valve against Communist resurgence.
And while the author doesn't mention it, the US had a big role in covertly funding the post-war Finnish labor union movement as a safety valve against Communist resurgence.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.
Re: Secret History
tuulen wrote:Today, the United States depends on Russia for rocket travel into space, to the International Space Station.
The significance is that rockets are now not armed with nuclear weapons, but rockets are now sending American astronauts and Russian cosmonauts into outer space, together.Rip wrote:As things are, that is an expensive hobby with very little significance.
tuulen wrote:Today, the United States has borrowed much money from China.
Remember that China invented the world's first number calculator, the abacus, and so Communist China cannot be considered stupid when it comes to numbers, and money.Rip wrote:Yes, China is keeping the value of its own currency depressed to keep the trade balance as tilted as possible, same time hurting global economy by keeping its interest rates high instead of fighting inflation by letting its currency appreciate. That is hardly 'co-operation'.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
The good news is that China, Russia and the United States are now beginning to work with each other, not against each other but with each other.
Re: Secret History
Unless it is missile defense... http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/world/ ... 56468.htmltuulen wrote:The good news is that China, Russia and the United States are now beginning to work with each other, not against each other but with each other.
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Visa is for visiting, Residence Permit for residing.
Visa is for visiting, Residence Permit for residing.
Re: Secret History
no nuclear missile was decommissioned for the purpose.tuulen wrote: The significance is that rockets are now not armed with nuclear weapons, but rockets are now sending American astronauts and Russian cosmonauts into outer space, together.
Although though beat almost everybody else in the so called developing world ("so called" because apart from China few of them show signs of "development"), the currency manipulation is still rather questionable practice. Apart from hurting outside world, it also putting the interests of the export industries (and industrials) ahead of the interest of the ordinary citizens.Remember that China invented the world's first number calculator, the abacus, and so Communist China cannot be considered stupid when it comes to numbers, and money.