ilman muuta ja muut ilman

[Satish]

Can someone please tell me what ilman muuta ja muut ilman means? Ilman muuta seems to mean a variant of "definitely" but I can´t work out ilman muuta ja muut ilman.. Is it a stronger version of ilman muuta?

[AldenG]

It's a cliched attempt at cleverness that has become altogether too common for many observers.

You are correct about ilman muuta being "definitely" in a certain sense. It is hard to find a word-for-word translation that means the same thing, but it is similar to "without further [ado]", which means something different in English but gives you a sense of how the meaning comes about. If you keep "without" and change the next word, you can get expressions like "without a doubt" or "without hesitation" that more closely express the meaning of ilman muuta.

ON EDIT: A more faithful word-for-word way of explaining it is "without further consideration."

I would say that ilman muuta is in the first place a form of consent or agreement. Saanko ottaa nämä? -- Ilman muuta! Ota vain. But you also see where people use it a lot in non-permission, non-agreement senses just to mean definitely, as in Tää on ilman muuta elämäni paskaisin päivä -- "This is without a doubt the crappiest day of my life." I can't take a position on how 'allowable' such a usage is, but it doesn't seem to be hard to find native Finns using it that way.

The muut ilman part is only an amplifier or a way of showing off one's supposed cleverness and cavalier devil-take-the-rest swagger or defiance. Literally it means "nothing for the others." The only reason it came into being was because of the superficial palindromic symmetry it gives. There are some analogous English rhyming augmentations of standard expressions, but I can't call one to mind at the moment.

[jahasjahas]

I would say that ilman muuta is in the first place a form of consent or agreement. Saanko ottaa nämä? -- Ilman muuta! Ota vain. But you also see where people use it a lot in non-permission, non-agreement senses just to mean definitely, as in Tä on ilman muuta elämäni paskaisin päivä -- "This is without a doubt the crappiest day of my life." I can't take a position on how 'allowable' such a usage is, but it doesn't seem to be hard to find native Finns using it that way.

Surely "paskin päivä"? "Paskaisin päivä" would be... uncomfortably concrete. (Also *tä(m)ä.)

I agree with your analysis of "ilman muuta ja muut ilman". I hadn't actually heard it before, but it fits nicely with such clever phrases as "you don't have to be crazy to work here but it helps" and "you can have fun sober but why take the risk?". A person using them has a higher than average probability of owning a "I'M WITH STUPID -->" t-shirt as well.

[AldenG]

Thanks, those expressions do convey the spirit I was trying to explain.

And I'll certainly bear in mind the distinction you point out between paskin and paskaisin. One never knows when one might need a morsel of knowledge like that.

I went back and added "without further consideration" because it hadn't occurred to me at first but does a better job of explaining the thought behind the words -- even though "definitely" or "for sure" remains a better situational translation IMO.

[AldenG]

OK, here's an example from English that finally occurred to me falling asleep.

There's an idiom "lock, stock, and barrel" that means completely inclusive. There are competing etymologies. Some say it refers to all the parts of a musket. Others say it is about buying a business completely, including the lock on the door, the stock (inventory), and even the empty barrels. Still others say that it was an established concept in real estate law referring to all the parts of a farm, including anything found thereon: buildings (under lock), stock (the animals) and the rain(?) barrel. Regardless of the true etymology, if there is a single one, there are obviously multiple supposed derivations that nonetheless all mean "in entirety."

And then there has also been a more flamboyant version at least since I was a kid, namely "lock, stock, and two smoking barrels." It was also taken for a movie title a few years ago. Here again it's an attempt to sound clever and more dramatic by putting an unexpected(?) twist on an old standard. Two smoking barrels suggests you've just discharged both barrels of a double-barreled firearm. It doesn't change the basic meaning, just states it more flamboyantly, emphatically, or both.

[Pursuivant]

Antaa ymmärtää muttei ymmärrä antaa.

[Satish]

Hey, thanks for the detailed replies! Seems like a phrase that I will use...

[jahasjahas]

Seems like a phrase that I will use...

Be careful not to get slapped!

On olemassa sanontoja ja kielen rakenteita, jotka toimivat sinällään. Ne ovat kielen tuttuja ilmaisuja, ja kaikki ymmärtävät ne.
Sovitaanko nyt niin, että näitä sanontoja ei "kehitetä" mukahauskoiksi? Annetaan niiden olla ihan sellaisenaan, ilman kuorrutuksia.
--

ilman muuta > ilman muuta ja muut ilman

Jos käytät jälkimmäistä, satunnainen vastaantulija on oikeutettu läimimään sinua nahkarukkasella kasvoille. Kesäaikaan kelpaa myös pientareelta repäisty voikukkamätäs.

Kootut latteudet

The comments on the blog post include many other bland phrases you should never use.

[Satish]

Be careful not to get slapped!

Okay, now you have me really interested! I need to calibrate the cringe factor of these phrases...

So...Which one of these would be closest to the appropriate emotion needed for ilman muuta ja muut ilman:

- Monty Python quotes
- Waynes World
- Forrest Gump
- [Edit] Deleted
- Any international politician
- Any other popular source...

I will then use it very judiciously...

[Jukka Aho]

It's a cliched attempt at cleverness that has become altogether too common for many observers. [...] The muut ilman part is only an amplifier or a way of showing off one's supposed cleverness and cavalier devil-take-the-rest swagger or defiance. Literally it means "nothing for the others." The only reason it came into being was because of the superficial palindromic symmetry it gives.

That’s quite a good analysis. As far as actual in-the-wild usage goes, the literal meaning of the latter part is almost irrelevant and not too much logic should be read into it. It’s only there because it disassembles the components of the preceding phrase in a “novel” way and rearranges them into this “satisfying” semi-symmetric reversal, and by doing this, somehow seems to emphasize the first part. (I mean “satisfying” in the sense rhymes can be “satisfying” to the ear. Sananmuunnokset [the OP might want to check out the English Wikipedia article as well] and spoonerisms could be considered related phenomena.)

Okay, now you have me really interested! I need to calibrate the cringe factor of these phrases...

So...Which one of these would be closest to the appropriate emotion needed for ilman muuta ja muut ilman:

- Monty Python quotes
- Waynes World
- Forrest Gump
- [Edit] Deleted
- Any international politician
- Any other popular source...

Ilman muuta ja muut ilman sounds a bit folksy to my ears. It would fit small-town folk who are trying hard to sound cheerfully assertive or who are almost too clever with words for their own good (sarcasm, because these kind of catchphrases are not particularly clever and they tend to grow old really quick when you hear someone using them constantly.)

[AldenG]

Ilman muuta ja muut ilman sounds a bit folksy to my ears. It would fit small-town folk who are trying hard to sound cheerfully assertive or who are almost too clever with words for their own good (sarcasm, because these kind of catchphrases are not particularly clever and they tend to grow old really quick when you hear someone using them constantly.)

I don't know that I've personally heard ilman muuta ja muut ilman but it feels familiar because of other things in this category that I've heard people say in Finnish. (Unfortunately I can't recall them offhand.) I said it was too common because I found others making that comment and because as you note, this category of witticism inherently grows old fast. It's almost old as soon as it's invented.

Today it brought to mind the pun "If I said you have a beautiful body, would you hold it against me?" which was already a clichéd pickup line (in various versions) long before it became a country song.

[Rob A.]

Today it brought to mind the pun "If I said you have a beautiful body, would you hold it against me?" which was already a clichéd pickup line (in various versions) long before it became a country song.

Plays on words are always fun....

I like those dry, "Yogi Berra" jokes...here are a few:

1. "When asked whether he'd like his pizza cut in six or eight slices, Yogi replied "Make it six. I'm not very hungry tonight."
2. "Hey, Yogi, what time is it?" "You mean now?"
3. "When you come to a fork in the road, take it."...This one I think I've known all my life...real popular with kids...
4. "Never make predictions, especially about the future."
5."You can observe a lot just by watching."
6."This is deja vu all over again."...and another old one...after I started learning French in high school, everyone seemed to know this one...
7. "Nobody goes to that restaurant anymore. It's too crowded."
8. "Ninety percent of this game is half mental."
9. "Anyone who is popular is bound to be disliked."

And while digging out these I found this funny one...for the grammar-nazis:

"Teacher: "Use the word 'I' in a sentence."
Tommy: "I is.."
Teacher: "No, Tommy, you must say 'I am'."
Tommy: "Alright. I am the ninth letter of the alphabet."

[silk]

I'll add one more:

"The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it is still on my list."

[Jellyfish]

Lehmä meni ensi kertaa kaupunkiin ja kysyi poliisilta: - Saako täällä ammua? - Ilman muuta, vastasi poliisi. Lehmä jatkoi matkaansa äännellen: - Am am am am.

[Upphew]

Took me effing ages to remember where that "iliman muuta ja muut iliman" were from...