The letter "y"

[laciethier]

Hello all,

As I am studying my Finnish words and phrases I keep getting confused about the correct way to pronounce the letter "y" in the certain words. I am not getting it, and every time I think I understand it I find I am pronounce yet another word incorrectly because of the "y". Is there a set list of rules or guidelines that somebody could give me when dealing with this letter?

Please and Thank you.

[Rob A.]

Hello all,

As I am studying my Finnish words and phrases I keep getting confused about the correct way to pronounce the letter "y" in the certain words. I am not getting it, and every time I think I understand it I find I am pronounce yet another word incorrectly because of the "y". Is there a set list of rules or guidelines that somebody could give me when dealing with this letter?

Please and Thank you.

No surprise that you're having trouble with the pronunciation of "y".... For me the "y" and the "ö" are the toughest letters to get right....

Take a look at this:

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/finnish. ... ation.html

And here's a good practice word:

yöpöytä....and when that gets easy try this one: ...höyryjyrä

Words like this can be used as shibboleths...during WW II I've read that Finnish soldiers would use words like these....even a word like yksi... as a "test" against possible Russian inflltrators because these kinds of letters are so difficult for non-native Finnish speakers to pronounce properly.....

[jahasjahas]

As I am studying my Finnish words and phrases I keep getting confused about the correct way to pronounce the letter "y" in the certain words. I am not getting it, and every time I think I understand it I find I am pronounce yet another word incorrectly because of the "y". Is there a set list of rules or guidelines that somebody could give me when dealing with this letter?

I know that y is hard for foreigners, but I'm a bit puzzled by the thought that it would be pronounced differently in different words. Could you give us some examples of the words you're having trouble with?

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. J. Korpela points out here (in Finnish) that, for example, the e's in "kerä" and "kera" sound slightly different because of vowel harmony. But this shouldn't happen with y, since it's not a central vowel. Anyway, these things are hard for natives to notice.

[laciethier]

(I'm sounding out the words as if the sound was spelt in english, sorry if it is confusing)
Well from what I understand for example if we look at the letter "a", some words it sounds like "ah" and some sound like"aw" depending on what letters are before and after the letter "a". The letter "o" is the same, it can sound like either "oh" or "aw" depending on what letters are around it. With "y" I know if the word starts with a "y", then the sound is "oo". But there are some words when I am listening to them, the "y" does not sound that way. The consistancy is off with the letter.

The issue may be that it sounds different because I am a foreigner. Maybe I am insane.

Also, the audio tools I use to learn Finnish, you can tell the people aren't Finnish. Perhaps that is the issue.

From a Finnish perspective, could somebody possibly summerize the sounds when speaking vowels? Maybe I have it all wrong. Any help would be appreciated.

Hope you are all having a good sleep as it is 1820hrs here in Canada and I think approx 0320hrs in Helsinki Finland.

I can't wait to come there!

[laciethier]

Hello all,

As I am studying my Finnish words and phrases I keep getting confused about the correct way to pronounce the letter "y" in the certain words. I am not getting it, and every time I think I understand it I find I am pronounce yet another word incorrectly because of the "y". Is there a set list of rules or guidelines that somebody could give me when dealing with this letter?

Please and Thank you.

No surprise that you're having trouble with the pronunciation of "y".... For me the "y" and the "ö" are the toughest letters to get right....

Take a look at this:

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/finnish. ... ation.html

And here's a good practice word:

yöpöytä....and when that gets easy try this one: ...höyryjyrä

Words like this can be used as shibboleths...during WW II I've read that Finnish soldiers would use words like these....even a word like yksi... as a "test" against possible Russian inflltrators because these kinds of letters are so difficult for non-native Finnish speakers to pronounce properly.....

Damn! Now that I looked at that site, I am totally off on the "y" sound. So it is neither "oo" or "ih", the sound is in between those?

Is this right?

[onkko]

during WW II I've read that Finnish soldiers would use words like these....even a word like yksi... as a "test" against possible Russian inflltrators because these kinds of letters are so difficult for non-native Finnish speakers to pronounce properly.....

We used those already in 1918 and used atleast in 1994-95 when i were in army. We had "daily passwords", words to recognise "own groups", like äyräpää and similar during "war games".

But how to learn and if there is differences in different words i dont know, i know only one y but that could be because im native.
It could be because your native language interferes, i know that russians pronounce it about "ju" and many others as weird "u". Some sets of letters just cant be done by some.
First thing i would to say is "be calm and carry on". It isnt that finns wont understand basic words like hyvä even if you say hjuva or huva. Of course its good to master pronounciation but its not end of world if you cant. Look at it when you master other, more important, aspects like vocabularity etc.
You can be fluent and understood even withouth perfecting all, and you probably wont get rid of accent what tells that you arent a finn.

While i wrote this you replied, Y is Y and nothing else I couldnt think english word where there is proper Y so i made sound clip to you.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/60636503/y.wma Y on Y, Y niinko yöpöytä, höyryjyrä, työpöytä, yötyöläinen.

[laciethier]

Ok I totally get it now. It is completely different hearing words from a Finn and words from a translator. Thank you so much for that clip. It makes so much sense now. I can hear what I was getting confused about. At home here I have a very thick aboriginal accent. My ear for certain sounds is different than that of a regular English speaker. Which is where I have the issue with hearing and pronouncing. I think I have got it. Now that I understand it is mush easier to pronounce certain words. Thank you for your help.

[Jukka Aho]

 
Some songs with “y” words:

• • •

Zen Café — Todella kaunis



Niin sinä ostat aikaa siis ja minä sitä myyn.
So you’re buying time, then, and I’m selling it.

Olet todella kaunis, elät vain yhden kerran
You’re really beautiful, you’ll only live once

Minä tarttuisin sinuun kysymättä
I’d grab / hold (onto) you without asking

(full lyrics and translation)

• • •

Zen Café — Eipä tiennyt tyttö



Eipä tiennyt tyttö
“The girl didn’t really know / truly realize”

(full lyrics)

• • •

Don Huonot — Hyvää yötä ja huomenta



Hyvää yötä ja huomenta
Good night and good morning! (well, you surely knew that one!)

(full lyrics and translation)

• • •

Scandinavian Music Group — Ylpeä sydän



Ylpeä sydän
A Proud Heart

Jos olisin viisaampi
Ja sydämeltäni nöyrempi
Jos ajattelisin aina selkeästi
Heräisin aikaisin

If I were wiser
and my heart was humbler
If I always thought clearly
I’d wake up early

Heräisin aikaisin
Ostaisin ruusun ja toisenkin
Ja sylini olisi lämmin
Niin kuin vielä eilen

I’d wake up early
I’d buy a rose and another
And my embrace would be warm
As it still was yesterday

Jos olisin sievempi
Ja luonteeltani säyseämpi
Jos ajattelisin muista lempeämmin
Heräisin aikaisin

If I were prettier
And less temperamental
If I thought gentler of the others
I’d wake up early

Heräisin aikaisin
Kampaisin tukkani hienommin
Ja hymyni olisi lämmin
Niin kuin vielä eilen

I’d wake up early
Comb my hair in a nicer way
And my smile would be warm
As it still was yesterday

Olen sydämeltäni ylpeä hölmöläinen
Sydämeltäni ylpeä hölmöläinen,
sydämeltäni ylpeä hölmöläinen
Enkä osaa lopettaa

I’m a fool with a proud heart        (lit. “I’m from/on/at my heart a proud fool”)
A fool with a proud heart,            (or “I’m a proud-hearted fool”)
a fool with a proud heart
And I don’t know how to stop.

Yks, kaks, kolme sydäntä särkyy
Vielä löytyy se joka ehjänä säilyy
Ehdin myöhemmin viettää aamuni
jonkun kylkiluuhun kasvaneena

One, two, three hearts go broke
The one that shall remain in one piece is yet to be found.
I can spend my mornings
grown fixed to someone’s rib later.

Kun herään laivat ovat lähteneet
Kortti kuivuu ja junia ei mee
Laiturilta tuuli vie
pois nekin jotka ei kelvanneet

When I wake up the ships have sailed away
My driver’s license has been confiscated and there are no trains going anywhere
The wind on the pier blows away those
who did not meet my criteria.

Olen sydämeltäni ylpeä hölmöläinen
Sydämeltäni ylpeä hölmöläinen,
sydämeltäni ylpeä hölmöläinen
Enkä osaa lopettaa

I’m a fool with a proud heart
A fool with a proud heart,
a fool with a proud heart
And I don’t know how to stop.

(full lyrics)

• • •

Mariska — Tarkasta tämä



Hä hä! Tarkasta tämä, mun nimi on Mariska,
mullon miekkana kynä, paperista haarniska
ratsuni on rakennettu musiikista
et voi pysäyttää enää kun oon saanut vauhdista
kiinni! Mun tiimi koostuu mikrofonista
ja tietysti musta, riimiritarettaresta.

Ha ha! Check this out: my name is Mariska,
I have a pen for a sword, paper for armor,
my steed was built out of music;
you can’t stop me any more when I’ve got
up to speed! My team consists of a microphone,
and me, of course; the rhyme knightress.

Mä puolustan pientä ja kulman takaa
voin keskarii näyttää, mielipiteitäni jakaa
isoille, koville vihollisille
ja juosta karkuun kotioville
Mut jos kiinni jään, mullon hihassa ässä
kun itku silmässä ja räkä nenässä
oon selittämässä, että erehdys tässä
on ehdottomasti nyt päässyt käymässä
Pakkohan mun täytyy olla roolii vetämässä
että selviäisin hengissä elämässä

I stand up for the small/weak and may flip the bird
from behind the corner, stating my opinions,
to the big, though, enemies
then run off to the home doors.
But if I get caught, I have an ace up my sleeve:
I’ll have tears in my eyes and snot running from my nose,
explaining this must all be just a misunderstanding, for sure;
You know, I have to play a role
to survive alive in this life.

(Chorus)

1:08

Olen roistolapsi, rääväsuu,
silti pohjimmiltaan ihan hyväsydäminen, juu juu!
Antaa kritiikin sataa, mut mä vahvana tuun
koska tarkkaan tiedän, mitä haluun.

I’m a wicked kid, a potty-mouth,
but still kindhearted in the end, yeah yeah!
Let the criticism rain, but I’ll be coming [entering the stage/scene] strong
coz I know full well what it is that I want.

1:19

Ja mä osaan mun jutun, teen sen omalla tyylillä
ei oo saumaa samaan jokaisella lyylillä
jotka pintaa näyttää, levynkantensa täyttää
tupla D:llä, mutta tällä MC:llä
ei oo tarvetta myydä musiikkia perseellä,
pystyn lauluni laulaan vaatteetkin päällä

And I know my stuff, I do it with my own style,
not every gal has what it takes to do that,
who are showing their skin, filling their album covers
with double D’s, but this MC
has no need to sell her music with her ass,
I’m able to sing my songs even with my clothes on.

etc.

(full lyrics)

[jahasjahas]

Ok I totally get it now. It is completely different hearing words from a Finn and words from a translator.

Are you using Google Translate or something similar to help with your pronunciation? You should be careful, since Google Translate is far from perfect. It seems to be okayish with most single words, but fails with complete sentences. The rhythm is wrong and it doesn't use rajageminaatio to connect words (e.g. "mene kotiin" should be pronounced "menek kotiin").

[AldenG]

In my opinion, the only dual pronunciations you should be concerned about are single versus double: a versus aa, o versus oo, k versus kk, t versus tt, etc. If you can get one good sound for each vowel, and then say it in single or double length, you'll be doing an excellent job and much better than many foreigners.

These are subtle things Korpela must be talking about, so subtle that most Finns wouldn't consciously know about them.

I've talked to educated Finns about their äo as in mä olen tukholmassa -- not an official diphthong, but something that occurs nonetheless -- and they couldn't recognize that they were saying the sound of each vowel differently than usual. Officially, there is only one sound per letter and you need an unusually keen ear to hear otherwise.

Jahasjahas already mentioned the most important unwritten variant, which relates to the imperative and maybe one or two other little exceptions. But even that is far less important for a foreigner than learning adverbs and the usual idiomatic ways of saying basic things.

[laciethier]

Ok I totally get it now. It is completely different hearing words from a Finn and words from a translator.

Are you using Google Translate or something similar to help with your pronunciation? You should be careful, since Google Translate is far from perfect. It seems to be okayish with most single words, but fails with complete sentences. The rhythm is wrong and it doesn't use rajageminaatio to connect words (e.g. "mene kotiin" should be pronounced "menek kotiin").

Oh no way, I wouldn't use something like that. I realize things like that can do more damage than good.

[laciethier]

Jahasjahas already mentioned the most important unwritten variant, which relates to the imperative and maybe one or two other little exceptions. But even that is far less important for a foreigner than learning adverbs and the usual idiomatic ways of saying basic things.

I know there are better things to focus on. I just get concerned I will say something incorrectly and offend somebody.

[onkko]

I know there are better things to focus on. I just get concerned I will say something incorrectly and offend somebody.

You can offend, couldnt think any examples but there is possibility. BUT when finn hears that you arent local he will think twice what you actually wanted to say and you facial/body expressions do play huge part of it.
Well in drunken crowds with people wanting to fight anything goes as reason but not in normal talking.

[tuulen]

There are the three "Back" vowels: U, O, A

There are the three "Front" vowels: Y, Ö, Ä

There are the two "Neutral" vowels: I, E

Back vowels are NEVER mixed in the same word with Front vowels, but Neutral vowels can go anywhere. (See grammatical rules of vowel harmony)

For instance, the compound word heinäaapa = heinä + aapa

[kalmisto]

First click on this !
http://tinyurl.com/7jrdvkt

Then click on the loudspeaker in the lower right hand corner of the text field and you will get the words pronounced to you !

The synthesizer pronounces the letter y correctly.

There is a long y sound in this song ( Olen syytön = I am innocent ) sung by Kirka :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbeht5GWsgI

He sings repeatedly "Olen syytön, syy-yy-tön."