Notkisteleminen and other conundrums

[AldenG]

In doing some translations, some uncertainty I had about a particular verb in a particular sentence has led me to seek other opinions. I've gotten surprisingly diverse and conflicting interpretations of both the word and the context around it, and so the obvious next step is to seek yet other interpretations and thereby add to the confusion.

The context is a folk song and the verb is notkistella. Here's one version of the song:

Heilani kotiin kulki kaksi tietä

Heilani kotiin kulki kaksi tietä, oikoinen ja väärä
Ja olikos sun heilani toisen kanssa huvitella määrä
Heilani varsi on kuin piiskan siima vaikkei se notkistele
Eikä se kaikkia tän kylän poikia omaksi omistele
Heilalleni minä kahvia keitän vaikkapa ämpärillä
Siinä saapi olla sekä [uudet/nuoret] että vanhat sen ämpärin ympärillä
Kaikaa ja raikaa mun heilani ääni vaikkei se kuulu tänne
Korkeat vuoret ja hiekkanummet ne on meidän välillämme
Eikä nyt auta itkeskellä eikä kovin paljon surra
Maailmalle täytyy lähteä ja vieraan leipää purra

I was all good up through and including piiskan siima. Thereafter I've got three sticking points:

1. How is notkistella generally used? It seems to be rare and often vague. In this instance is it just about showing off or preening, or is it about pride and stubbornness, or is it something else?

2. Is omaksi omistella here just "own all for oneself" or is there a more idiomatic meaning I'm missing?

3. And then I'm hearing disagreement about the significance of making coffee by the bucket and inviting one and all to come partake.

Frankly I am as interested in various people's diversity of opinion as in finding One True Answer, so don't let one person's interpretation prevent you from adding your own.

[Jukka Aho]

(Disclaimer: I’ve never heard the song before.)

1. How is notkistella generally used? It seems to be rare and often vague. In this instance is it just about showing off or preening, or is it about pride and stubbornness, or is it something else?

This is probably the first time I encounter the word but since it appears to have been derived from a common adjective, notkea, I’d naturally interpret it as a synonym for the verb venytellä (“to strech [one’s muscles]”).

As for what the word is supposed to mean in this context, however, I’m not sure. It’s entirely possible some local dialectal variant of Finnish might assign a more specific meaning to it — or at least they might once have had one before the word fell in disuse.

The girlfriend mentioned in the song is apparently of slender build as she gets compared to a whiplash... even though she — unlike a whiplash? — does not notkeile. Maybe she does not (habitually, wantonly) bend, yield, sway as easily as a whiplash, but whether that is intended to refer to her gymnastic abilities or maybe to her character in a figurative sense, I can’t really say.

You could even interpret the lyrics as saying she has stayed slim “as a whiplash” even without (habitual) stretching/exercising... but that will likely force it all into a bit too modern frame of reference!

Oh, about that bending and yielding, or lack of thereof... it could also be a reference to the next line of the song, where it is revealed she’s not a complete village hoe. Or is she? It’s a bit vague song in that regard. ;)

2. Is omaksi omistella here just "own all for oneself" or is there a more idiomatic meaning I'm missing?

I’d say the tautology is probably just to get the meter and rhyme right for the lyrics. Maybe whoever originally came up with that song just didn’t bother thinking of a better way of doing it. Also, it adds a touch of that Kalevala-esque alliteration...

3. And then I'm hearing disagreement about the significance of making coffee by the bucket and inviting one and all to come partake.

I guess interpreting something like this tends to be so far removed from the present-day existence of Finns we’re soon going to need an anthropologist or a folklorist to explain to us what is going on in these songs.

[onkko]

About coffee, it was luxyru and way over normal working man. To make it for family and kylä it was like promising moon from sky.
Thats how i see it.

[onkko]

To add my memories, i remember that mother of my grandfather told that "nowadays you can just drink coffee, it used to be once in month"
That can be false memory since i were about 5y old or anyway but thats something to think.

[AldenG]

I guess interpreting something like this tends to be so far removed from the present-day existence of Finns we’re soon going to need an anthropologist or a folklorist to explain to us what is going on in these songs.

For instance, I found several links in which it is used to discuss the behavior of a cow in heat -- knowledge that is becoming less and less useful for today's typical city-dweller.

Some instances looked literal and unspecialized -- notkisteli selkäänsä -- but others used the word alone, suggesting it is used in breeding circles as specialized shorthand for receptive behavior. I think perhaps it's not an unreasonable stretch that country folk at one time might have used this figuratively to describe come-hither behavior or plain old preening in girls or women.

As I played with person and tense of the word in Google, I did find a few instances discussing doing stuff with auto parts and other things, but mostly literal venyttely.

[Jukka Aho]

Some instances looked literal and unspecialized -- notkisteli selkäänsä -- but others used the word alone, suggesting it is used in breeding circles as specialized shorthand for receptive behavior. I think perhaps it's not an unreasonable stretch :wink: that country folk at one time might have used this figuratively to describe come-hither behavior or plain old preening in girls or women.

Good detective work. That settles it then, and it seems to fit the theme of the song.

The second line questions the possibility, suspicion, or mere idle thought there might have been something funny going on with somebody else, or plans for that. Or maybe it’s just friendly banter; teasing the girl by mock-questioning her intentions.

The third line notes she has a slender build but she’s not into a habit of using this “asset” to flirt with men (by making suggestive poses, etc. — in this interpretation, notkistella would be mean about the same as keimailla or keikistelllä.)

The fourth line means she maintains some standards: she doesn’t get involved with just any young man from her home village, or consider them all “her own”. But obviously the singer sees himself as one of those select few who she might want to “own”, or maybe he actually is the only one in that category.

[AldenG]

The fourth line means she maintains some standards: she doesn’t get involved with just any young man from her home village, or consider them all “her own”. But obviously the singer sees himself as one of those select few who she might want to “own”, or maybe he actually is the only one in that category.

I've heard something like your interpretation of the fourth line from another source, too, and in general the idea that this is a song of happy love and praise.

I have trouble hearing it that way, maybe because I've known the song 25 years and fastened on a misinterpretation from the beginning. This is a song, by the way, that ever since Pasi Jääskeläinen first recorded it early in the early 1900's, has been sung getting faster and faster with every verse. (Every line as I've written it above is broken into two parts, each of which is separately sung multiple times.) That technique in itself can be interpreted a variety of ways by singer and listener. I've heard it as growing agitation and anger.

The first verse says there are two paths to his sweetheart's door, one straight, open, aboveboard, etc., and the other crooked, sneaky and underhanded.

The next wonders why she had to cheat on him with someone else. (As in, did you really have to do that, with määrä in this case equivalent to pakko?) Or am I fundamentally misreading something there?

Then there is the bit about her lithe physique and whatever the second part is meant to say. If he's not saying she's inflexible and stubborn, then I have trouble seeing what a line of praise here is doing amid the critical lines before and after. Unless of course there's a non-critical interpretation of the other verses that hasn't sunk in for me.

By this time, the singer is singing considerably faster and, as I've interpreted it, with more agitation and anger.

The words Eikä se tän kylän kaikkia poikia omaksi omistele seem clear in their literal meaning but leave latitude for interpreting the intent behind them. I've always heard the verse as protest against her behavior, as in what right does she have to treat all these boys she's dallying with as her personal playthings?

Then there's the part about making coffee by the bucket and about all the people welcome to come drink it, which I've heard as sarcastic, like he's only good for making coffee for all her other lovers and while we're at it, why not invite just the whole damn village since she's had (or flirted with?) most of them at one time or another.

The version I've heard ends there but I'm still able to interpret the rest of it in this light, that he goes far away bitter and still wanting her but also angry at her and knowing there won't be a reconciliation. Isn't that how a Finnish folk song is supposed to go anyway?

Of course we don't know how these verses have been mix-and-matched over the years, and sometimes they even get transplanted from one song to another.

But who generally cooked big batches of coffee? Was it a man of status or was it housewives? And was it to celebrate certain events in particular? Considering onkko's comments, should we interpret the coffee as a celebration or more like "As long as all these guys are coming to see her, why not roll out a red carpet for them, too" since a red carpet and coffee are both symbols of luxury.

I guess the reason I'm having trouble letting go of my original interpretation is that I can't get another one to add up and explain all the pieces satisfactorily. But even my original interpretation stumbles on the line with vaikkei se notkistele. And I don't know how to translate the entirety leaving all the original ambiguity intact. Well, it all turns on the translation of ei notkistele, really. Or so it seems at the moment. Then again, why am I worrying about having it make sense in English when apparently it doesn't add up unambiguously in Finnish to Finns, either?

[Jukka Aho]

I have trouble hearing it that way, maybe because I've known the song 25 years and fastened on a misinterpretation from the beginning. This is a song, by the way, that ever since Pasi Jääskeläinen first recorded it early in the early 1900's, has been sung getting faster and faster with every verse. (Every line as I've written it above is broken into two parts, each of which is separately sung multiple times.) That technique in itself can be interpreted a variety of ways by singer and listener. I've heard it as growing agitation and anger.

That could be a Russian-influenced (?) musical joke. Compare to Kalinka... But as I said, I have not heard the song.

The first verse says there are two paths to his sweetheart's door, one straight, open, aboveboard, etc., and the other crooked, sneaky and underhanded.

I’m not sure what to make of that one.

The next wonders why she had to cheat on him with someone else. (As in, did you really have to do that, with määrä in this case equivalent to pakko?) Or am I fundamentally misreading something there?

Olla määrä tehdä jotain = “To be expected/obliged to do something”, “To have laid out a plan about doing something and expecting to follow through it”. It could also be a reference to a possible future event, or an event in the past which was to be, but never actually happened. obligation to do something. Hence, one possible interpretation for the first line is “Do you / did you have (previously laid out) plans on having fun times with someone else...”

Consider the question:

Sinunko on määrä noutaa pehtoori asemalta?

It’s a question about an obligation or a previously settled plan, possibly coming from the person himself or assigned to him by someone above him... but it’s not about personal desire.

But it does not need to be about personal desire or “must” — and I think it seldom is about such a thing. More often, it’s about intentions regarding the future, or intentions regarding past events; in the latter case, especially those which were originally planned or believed to happen in a certain way but got interrupted or changed in some way.

in some cases this kind of an usage of määrä even refers to a plan laid out by a Higher Power or Destiny/Fate on behalf of the person (possibly) following through such plan — so it might be something the higher powers have “written in the stars” for you.

Matt. 1:4 ”Hän kutsui koolle kansan ylipapit ja lainopettajat ja tiedusteli heiltä, missä messiaan oli määrä syntyä.”

Jesaja 53:9 ”Hänet oli määrä haudata jumalattomien joukkoon. Rikkaan haudassa hän sai leposijansa. Koskaan hän ei ollut harjoittanut vääryyttä, eikä petos ollut noussut hänen huulilleen.”

(The above kind of an usage of the word määrä is generally seen as old-fashioned.)

Then there's the part about making coffee by the bucket and about all the people welcome to come drink it, which I've heard as sarcastic, like he's only good for making coffee for all her other lovers and while we're at it, why not invite just the whole damn village since she's had (or flirted with?) most of them at one time or another.

I considered that kind of an interpretation myself as well... What’s with the alternative words (uudet/nuoret)?

The version I've heard ends there but I'm still able to interpret the rest of it in this light, that he goes far away bitter and still wanting her but also angry at her and knowing there won't be a reconciliation. Isn't that how a Finnish folk song is supposed to go anyway?
I don’t think there’s a pattern to these things, or at least no “angry pattern”. The love songs are often about longing for someone who is far away or otherwise not available, though.

Stumbled upon some sheet music of Finnish folk songs:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... _Vihko.pdf
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... _Vihko.pdf
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... _Vihko.pdf

But who generally cooked big batches of coffee? Was it a man of status or was it housewives? And was it to celebrate certain events in particular? Considering onkko's comments, should we interpret the coffee as a celebration or more like "As long as all these guys are coming to see her, why not roll out a red carpet for them, too" since a red carpet and coffee are both symbols of luxury.

Housewives, I think. See here for some history.

I guess the reason I'm having trouble letting go of my original interpretation is that I can't get another one to add up and explain all the pieces satisfactorily. But even my original interpretation stumbles on the line with vaikkei se notkistele. And I don't know how to translate the entirety leaving all the original ambiguity intact. Well, it all turns on the translation of ei notkistele, really. Or so it seems at the moment. Then again, why am I worrying about having it make sense in English when apparently it doesn't add up unambiguously in Finnish to Finns, either?

I can see your problem. :D Maybe you should contact someone like Heikki Laitinen, a professor of folk music at the Sibelius Academy. (Hmm, he might actually have retired by now...)

[AldenG]

I considered that kind of an interpretation myself as well... What’s with the alternative words (uudet/nuoret)?

One source has it as uudet and another as nuoret. Nuoret fits better in terms maintaining the excited rhythm at that point but uudet makes more sense if we're talking about inviting all her flings.

[Rob A.]

I'm not sure I can add much to this discussion....as usual with my level of Finnish, I'm able to understand basically what these lyrics are about, but not the nuances. I'm sure the theme is somehow related to that age-old conundrum of being infatuated with someone and not getting the desired response from the "love-object", with the lovelorn one then imagining all sorts of things...that she is free and easy with everyone else, except for him. Probably, coffee is symbolic of her "hospitality" which is given to everyone...the whole village...except for the lovelorn one.

Well, something like that.....

And I suppose as Jukka says, some of these old themes, as is the case of most northern European cultures, are almost getting to the point of needing input from anthropologists. I think it is a frequent problem these days with people reading into old books, songs etc., things the original author may never have intended, or interpreting words in their modern context and applying them retroactively.

I recently looked up the expression, "Time and tide wait for no man." This, of course, gets interpreted nowadays in a modern context. The expression has been in the English language for hundreds of years, prior to modern English, and prior, apparently, to 1225, the earliest known record.

The word, "tide", had nothing to do with the ocean,...but rather with a season or period of time, etc. Traces of this old meaning are still around ... in the Christmas carol, "We Wish You a Merry Christmas", for example, or "Whitsuntide", or the word, "noontide", which, of course, no one but a Shakespearean actor would use these days.... On second thought, you might hear it on the Yorkshire moors....or maybe in Scotland...

{Edit:...I think I have the analysis about the coffee twisted around 180 deg. ...it looks like he is trying to impress her with lots of coffee... ]