getting rid of Finnish accent

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tuulen
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Re: getting rid of Finnish accent

Post by tuulen » Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:47 am

Jukka Aho wrote:What I meant was that even if you read the word “English” as if it were a Finnish word — subject to similar pronunciation rules as any written Finnish word when read aloud — it’s still two syllables: /eŋ-liʃ/ or /eŋ-lish/. Well, maybe someone could even say /en-ɡliʃ/ or /en-ɡlish/, or replace the /ɡ/ with a /k/, or drop the /h/ since the consonant clusters in that word are rather “foreign” for a supposed Finnish word. But it’s a bit difficult to imagine how that four-syllable pronunciation came about. ;)
Apparently English began to be taught in Finnish schools in the 1970s, but my mother-in-law learned English many years before that, in the 1940s, before she moved to the US in the early 1950s.

For instance, consider "Helsingin" (Hel-sin-gin) and then consider her pronunciation of "English" (En-g-lis-(h)). The "g" of "Helsingin" is quite similar to the "g" of her pronunciation of "English". There is no "gl" sound in Finnish, and so she pronounces "g-l". There is no "sh" sound in Finnish, and so she pronounces "s-h".

En-g-lis-(h)

Today Finns can speak English properly, but many years ago my mother-in-law had to adapt Finnish into English. Call it "Old School", but that is how she pronounces English.



Re: getting rid of Finnish accent

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Jukka Aho
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Re: getting rid of Finnish accent

Post by Jukka Aho » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:34 am

tuulen wrote:Apparently English began to be taught in Finnish schools in the 1970s,
A quick Google search seems to suggest English overtook German in popularity in the Finnish schools in the 1950s. But the school system was rather different back then and only those who aimed for higher-level education (and enrolled in oppikoulu) needed to take foreign languages.

I’m not sure when, exactly, English classes did become generally available in the Finnish school system.. but if the tipping point in the popularity contest between German and English was reached in the 1950s, English must have been a commonly studied language (at least to some reasonable degree) already years before that.

Since your mother-in-law started her English studies here in Finland, and at a time when not even TV broadcasts had begun here yet, it all pretty much explains her pronunciation. There wasn’t too much authentic material she could have listened to. Maybe long-wave radio and some “language school” as records, at best.

After moving to live in a foreign country, one could of course soak up on pronunciation cues from the natives like a sponge and begin speaking with an increasingly native-like pronunciation every passing day. It’s a mystery to me why some people never manage/bother to do that, or maybe never even notice the matter, retaining a strong accent, while some others immediately begin adjusting theirs to match what they hear in their new surroundings, even with no greater conscious effort. (It’s not only about age, either, since some people remain very flexible in this regard even in their adulthood.)
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jahasjahas
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Re: getting rid of Finnish accent

Post by jahasjahas » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:26 am

tuulen wrote:For instance, consider "Helsingin" (Hel-sin-gin) and then consider her pronunciation of "English" (En-g-lis-(h)). The "g" of "Helsingin" is quite similar to the "g" of her pronunciation of "English". There is no "gl" sound in Finnish, and so she pronounces "g-l". There is no "sh" sound in Finnish, and so she pronounces "s-h".
But the "ng" in both "English" and "Helsingin" is a [ŋ], so I'm not sure I understand your example.

We do have "gl" and "sh/š" in loanwords (gluteeni, shakki), but I suppose older folks can happily pronounce them as "(k)luteeni" and "sakki".

tuulen
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Re: getting rid of Finnish accent

Post by tuulen » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:34 am

jahasjahas wrote:But the "ng" in both "English" and "Helsingin" is a [ŋ], so I'm not sure I understand your example.

We do have "gl" and "sh/š" in loanwords (gluteeni, shakki), but I suppose older folks can happily pronounce them as "(k)luteeni" and "sakki".
Hel-siŋ-ŋin

Eŋ-ŋ-lis-(h)

My mother-in-law is now in her mid-80s, so she qualifies as being an "older" person!

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jahasjahas
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Re: getting rid of Finnish accent

Post by jahasjahas » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:52 am

tuulen wrote:Hel-siŋ-ŋin
Eŋ-ŋ-lis-(h)
Hm. Of course "nk" is pronounced [ŋ] (short vowel) and "ng" is [ŋŋ] (long vowel) in Finnish (which I didn't consider at first), but I still wouldn't say that the "g" in "Helsingin" has a separate pronunciation.

I think hyphenating the pronunciation examples is somewhat confusing if we're mixing IPA characters like ŋ there. "Hel-siŋ-ŋin" makes me think of "Helsinknkin" :wink:

tuulen
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Re: getting rid of Finnish accent

Post by tuulen » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:12 am

jahasjahas wrote:...but I still wouldn't say that the "g" in "Helsingin" has a separate pronunciation.
Perhaps we could agree that Helsingin is a three syllable word, and that the "n" and the "g" have about the same sound.

Rob A.
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Re: getting rid of Finnish accent

Post by Rob A. » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:06 pm

tuulen wrote:
jahasjahas wrote:...but I still wouldn't say that the "g" in "Helsingin" has a separate pronunciation.
Perhaps we could agree that Helsingin is a three syllable word, and that the "n" and the "g" have about the same sound.
Yes....the "ng" is linguistically still a form of consonant gradation and is an example of assimilation... which occurs in Finnish only with certain letters... The sounds are kind of run together, but not fully....and so with "ng" you end up with a kind of nasal sound...the "k" softening to a "g" sound...

Another example is lintu/linnut....here the sounds are more separate sounding than with the 'ng" sound....

kalmisto
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Re: getting rid of Finnish accent

Post by kalmisto » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:59 pm

Here is the Finnish strongman Jouko Ahola in "Invincible" and "Kingdom of Heaven" :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITXroawEORA

In "Invincible" ( I have not seen it ) he is supposed to speak with a foreign accent but certainly not a FINNISH accent !

I do not understand why they could not just dub his voice in both movies. And why is a foreign accent such a problem when there is always the dubbing possibility ?

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Re: getting rid of Finnish accent

Post by kalmisto » Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:48 pm

Siri understands poorly "tankero English" :
http://www.digitoday.fi/vimpaimet/2011/ ... 1115831/66

"tankeroenglanti" = English spoken with a thick Finnish accent

AldenG
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Re: getting rid of Finnish accent

Post by AldenG » Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:11 pm

kalmisto wrote:Siri understands poorly "tankero English" :
http://www.digitoday.fi/vimpaimet/2011/ ... 1115831/66

"tankeroenglanti" = English spoken with a thick Finnish accent
Now that's interesting.

As soon as I read about the wife / life problem I could hear exactly how it happens. (MY wife doesn't say "life" that way but I can hear in my mind several Finnish men who do.)

It's not that the typical Finnish way of saying "life" is bad in itself (though exaggerated) but that "wife" would be tricky to recognize by software.

Life typically has a very short L while "wife" can have an extended W akin to oo in ooze. That's the kind that gets confused with Finnish L, I expect. Of course sometimes that W is very short, too and sometimes we even distinguish wife and life by context alone. I'm not sure how software would recognize a vaif -like pronunciation. The correct pronunciation of wife in Finnish spelling is uaif with shortening of the u. The trick to life is a very forward L instead of the back L that some Finns prefer. This confuses me, though, because when I think how most Finns I've known say liian, the very same L is perfect for life. It must be something about the following 'a' sound that pulls the L back and down.

Someone needs to come up with a Sari to replace Siri on Finnish iPhones.
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Pursuivant
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Re: getting rid of Finnish accent

Post by Pursuivant » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:07 am

kalmisto wrote: In "Invincible" ( I have not seen it ) he is supposed to speak with a foreign accent but certainly not a FINNISH accent !
Well he gets shot before much speaking in "Kingdom of Heaven". But that bit in "Invincible" is definitely about as a "Finnish accent" as you can get - and, one of the telltale phrases, I mean, how can he get, I mean, that I mean, included into there, I mean... sounds just like my prof in the poly.
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Bavarian
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Re: getting rid of Finnish accent

Post by Bavarian » Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:46 am

Alden's post about the pronunciation of the W in American English reminded me of this recent commercial:



I seem to recall when I was growing up that the big dictionary we had, which dated from the 1960s, used the "hw" pronunciation that the baby uses, but that nobody in real life was using it (this would have been the late 1970s).

Rob A.
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Re: getting rid of Finnish accent

Post by Rob A. » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:16 am

Bavarian wrote:Alden's post about the pronunciation of the W in American English reminded me of this recent commercial:

...
I seem to recall when I was growing up that the big dictionary we had, which dated from the 1960s, used the "hw" pronunciation that the baby uses, but that nobody in real life was using it (this would have been the late 1970s).

Here is a wiki map showing the portions of the US where the "w / hw" pronunciation distinction is greatest.

Image

The wiki article says that, in modern times, in most of the English-speaking world "w" and "wh" have now come to have the same pronunciation, but not in Scotland, nor for the most part in Ireland.... and the distinction is still common in parts of the USA and Canada....

Interestingly the US map shows this is in Appalachia and the Ozarks...to a large extent, in "hillbilly" country...and the original settlers for these areas came from Scotland and Ireland about 300 years ago..... And a large portion of the Canadian population have, at least in part, Scottish/Irish ancestors [I suspect, but don't know, that the distinction will appear greatest in rural areas, such as eastern Ontario and Atlantic Canada.]

Hmmmm...and I recall being given the impression in school where a few teachers had continued to push this distinction that somehow it was the "educated" way to speak...... Not so, apparently... :lol:


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