Clarifications regarding RP based on family ties..

[madamekira]

Greetings everyone,

I realize there have been a *lot* of posts made regarding residency permits, but I continue to find conflicting information with almost every post I read. I would be appreciative if anyone with experience could pop in here and try to clarify some things for me. I also did check the migri website as well, but it doesn't seem to cover everything.

To start with, I am a US citizen and my fiance is a native Finn - we are planning to get married either at the end of July or early August. Sometime shortly after, I plan to go ahead and apply for a residency permit based on family ties (our marriage.) This is where it becomes a little confusing, because I see so much conflicting information.. My main questions are:

1. We have never lived together prior to our first meeting, and I'm told by some people that migri requires you to prove you have lived together for 2 years, before the RP will be approved. Others have stated that marriage is the 'proof' that you have had a relationship, and that there is no further proof required (that it is a loophole, basically.) What I DO have are an ample supply of emails, text messages, and other correspondences to show that we have been communicating as a couple for almost three years now. Is this enough? Again, I'm told none of it is required by some people, and then something different by someone else.

2. Is there an income requirement for myself or him? Again, conflicting information, but this is directly from the migri website:

"A secure income is not required when granting a residence permit to, for example,

a native Finn and his or her family member."

Yet, I read from others that they had a requirement? And even on the migri website just above that quote, it states a foreigner may need a secure income. I just don't know what to believe. Obviously, we have no children together as well. Currently, I do not have a secure income of my own, and we have discussed this at length as a couple and agreed that it's okay for him to be the 'support system' in our relationship until I'm able to find work. (Yes, I don't need the lecture on how hard it is to find a job as a foreigner, I have researched that.)

Ultimately, I am willing to do whatever needs to be done so that we can live together as a couple and stick it out as long as is needed, but I'm still having a lot of anxiety, especially considering #1.. We haven't really had an opportunity to meet until now or we would have, and even so, I wouldn't have been able to live with him for 2 years considering you can only stay for 3 months at a time. He despises America, and frankly I'm not too happy with it either, although I realize every country has their problems. Ultimately, he would like to stay in Finland and I would love to move there with him. So..any thoughts? Could anyone share their personal marriage-RP story please? Any information is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[Pursuivant]

The "two-year-rule" is when you apply for family ties not being married. Marriage is tangible "proof". What then comes to the immigration people believing in "true love" thats a different question, but internet courting isn't a mystery any more.

Basically, if you plan on coming to Finland, marrying and then applying for a RP, it can be a long wait. During this time you are in a "limbo" so you don't exist in the system and are not entitled to anything. So usually the suggestion is to apply from "home" as you can then jump off the airplane and "exist" from day one. Just things like health insurance etc. you need to think of. But if a Las Vegas marriage is out of the question and you want to have the pleasant affidavit sworn at the embassy, heck, yeah its been done.

[Rip]

Marriage as such is sufficient grounds. It would help persuade immigration authorities that it is not a phoney one if you had lived some time together, or had had a number of shorter visits. I do not know how much weight it has, but being American can't hurt compared to most nationalities.

Income or assets are irrelevant for a residence permit as long one of the spouses is a Finnish citizen (sure, they can make life nicer in other ways).

Do try to make some sort of realistic plan what you will intend to do after coming here.

[madamekira]

Hello again, and thank you for the quick responses, both of you.

We are definitely working on a plan for when I'm in 'limbo', and over the last year or so I've been studying Finnish as well, though I would like to take classes once I'm here. I don't plan on being a mooch of a foreigner and will happily contribute on my end as soon as I'm able to. If need be, I'll apply for the RP and return here to wait it out, though I would prefer to remain with him as the distance is really painful to deal with.

But again, thank you for the kind responses - it does alleviate a lot of anxiety on my end!

[Kutittaa]

We are definitely working on a plan for when I'm in 'limbo'

Well you're going to need a lot of money. Your permit could be denied based on the fact you have never met your fiancé before... meaning that you will be out of pocket for your plane ticket there, forced to buy one back (you should always get a return anyway just in case) and you will also lose whatever money you spent in Finland whilst waiting for a response. It's not the 'recommended' course of action for those who have never even met their spouse-to-be in the first place...

Applying in your own country, working and saving money until such time as the permit is granted, looks far better in anyone's eyes.
Remember to get insurance too, if anything happens you're really going to suffer not just physically perhaps, but definitely financially.

Good luck to you both. You'll need it. I hope your fiancé has a good job here in Finland, fair bit of money to spare and doesn't mind financially supporting you for the next few years.

and over the last year or so I've been studying Finnish as well

This means nothing, as you will soon see.

Though I would like to take classes once I'm here. I don't plan on being a mooch of a foreigner

Those who have to take classes because they don't know Finnish are this 'mooch' you speak of... because of my next point

and will happily contribute on my end as soon as I'm able to.

2, 3, 4 years perhaps. Add together the fact you'll probably do a degree here of course, spending the whole courses + your degree on government benefits. Because it's not like you can really make money yourself at this point in time right? No qualifications that you stated, as well as no 'real' knowledge of Finnish.

If need be, I'll apply for the RP and return here to wait it out.

No you won't. Please, how stupid do you think we are? It's midly insulting to think that anyone would believe this... that you will pay to fly here, to simply marry and then happily go back to America to wait out the permit? Garbage. While it would look fantastic in Migri's eyes (and that was once how it was done), you don't really expect us to believe this do you? Which is why the warnings of above are appropriate.

Though I would prefer to remain with him as the distance is really painful to deal with.

Distance and a few months are nothing compared to setting off on the wrong foot. We're not talking about you moving down the road, you're moving to the other side of the planet and you've never been here before. Not even as a tourist. We have all had to go through this distance you speak of in 1 way or another. It's just a prerequisite of making such a move. I wish I still had a link to the article about the entire British family being turned away for not properly planning because they didn't do things correctly from the start.

But again, thank you for the kind responses - it does alleviate a lot of anxiety on my end!

You have no idea. But that doesn't mean that it's impossible at all. The real question, the most important question is. Have you got what it takes?

We'll see. Good luck as I said before!

[Pursuivant]

Scary hairy monster!

But all too true, if you've never been out of the USA, you'll be having a number "this ain't Kansas no more" moments. Adding to that the human relationship chemistry, you might be in for a rollercoaster ride. But, its all been done before, and with various degrees of success. If you are "aware" of all this, and reading all these "oohh soo negative" posts here that try and portray Cromwell's warts as the Elephant Man, its just done for the benefit of the bright-eyed positive-thinkers that have a problem with reality. When it hits they come here and provide entertainment, its like walmart-people in text. We don't want you to become one of them.

As for Finnish classes, you'll have some problems due to the "limbo" status you can't get on all of them as they're meant for people in the integration programmes, so you will have to shell out for "private" classes. Likewise the healthcare is needing to be "private" so a good insurance (from the USA as they don't know what that is here as everyone is on the state, except tourists). Lots of small annoying things. Mind me asking, but are you going to settle in a small town or a city and do you plan on say studying? Theres a few things you can do to make things easier "future in mind".

PS. do tell me his name is not Vesa Keskinen

[AldenG]

Better to move in the spring than the autumn. You laugh, probably, but you'll build a better foundation for the entire experience by living through the light before the gloom. Not having lived someplace like that before, you will underestimate the profoundness of their effect. But it's primal. Any similar experience you've had in normal latitudes will be only the palest suggestion.

People who despise entire countries, especially when they are as large and complex as the U.S., have a tendency toward rocky relationships. Just sayin'... But the whole experience will be an excellent adventure for you at the least and hopefully something much better.

Now are we talking cosmopolitan Southern Indiana or the rest? For instance, do you see Bear's outside the window? Have you learned any other languages in the past? Lived elsewhere? Any of those will help you somewhat, though Finnish really is in a class by itself. Well, almost by itself.

The only issue for Migri is the genuineness of the marriage. But "officially," Americans don't marry Finns to escape America --instead Finns marry Americans to escape Finland. Particularly if you apply from your home country (which will speed the process considerably), the sheer novelty of somebody playing by the rules could work in your favor. In any event, you are highly likely to receive the benefit of any doubt. And income and resources are just not relevant to the decision. You don't disclose them, so the officials processing your application don't even have a way of knowing whether this is to your financial benefit or imposes any sort of financial strain, etc. It could very well be that you need the time in the U.S. post-wedding to tie up loose ends, anyway. At least if you stated that in connection with the application (if it's even asked or relevant), who could doubt it?

Forget the two years requirement. As others have noted, that's for non-married couples. Certainly a bit of time together strengthens the inferred validity of the marriage, and having zero time can weaken it. Can you spend a month or two in Finland this summer? Or can he spend some time in the US with you? Or ideally both? But in principle, you need two years OR marriage. Not both.

As long as neither of you has major personality problems, the early success of the marriage is going to come down to pheromonal compatibility anyway. When it's ideal, it can overcome a host of other problems. When it isn't, it can undermine a lot of compatibility and good will in other areas. You already have a taste, or at least foretaste, of everything else. Or much else. But you can't know the biochemistry of the relationship until you spend some time together breathing the air around each other. That's another reason to spend some time together before you get hitched.

[AldenG]

There is a middle-age-or-thereafter American programmer in central Finland (or was it northern?) who moved there to be with a Finnish woman he met on the web. They met face-to-face for the first time when he landed at Helsinki-Vantaa. He has a blog, but unfortunately, I can't at the moment remember his name, the blog's name, or what I was Googling a couple of years ago that found him in the first place.

As far as I can tell, that worked out for them. So there is precedent.

---------
ON EDIT: I finally found it. It didn't help that at first, I was looking for love (theirs, that is) in all the wrong places. He lives in the one area (southern coast) that I hadn't even considered.

Grandpa Lake's Weblog

OK, you'll conclude that you have very little in common with him, age-wise and culture-wise. (Actually, I don't have much in common with him, either.) And it's been two years since his last post, so he may not be with us any longer. But then many of us look different and strange to each other, even off-putting at first glance, for one reason or another. That's one of the big challenges and rewards in life, isn't it, learning to look beneath the surface to find commonality? What his story shows is that the situation you describe succeeds for some.

[grmmph]

Sorry to interupt this disscussion, but I have seen something that also applied for my case, and I didn't want to open a new topic for that.

As I have said before, I am an EU citizen while my girlfriend is Israeli. We live together for the last 2.5 years, we also planing to get married as soon as we get to Finalnd (as I mention on the other topic, that's because Israel has a lack of civil marriges).
Which RP application would be quicker for my grilfriend: Based on our 2.5 years living together, or base on our very-fresh marige agreement?

Thanks.

[AldenG]

Sorry to interupt this disscussion, but I have seen something that also applied for my case, and I didn't want to open a new topic for that.

As I have said before, I am an EU citizen while my girlfriend is Israeli. We live together for the last 2.5 years, we also planing to get married as soon as we get to Finalnd (as I mention on the other topic, that's because Israel has a lack of civil marriges).
Which RP application would be quicker for my grilfriend: Based on our 2.5 years living together, or base on our very-fresh marige agreement?

Thanks.

It's the same application -- family ties either way. So the cohabitation and marriage reinforce each other. If asked in an interview why you waited to get married until in Finland, you have a perfectly good answer that your wife didn't want to become an Orthodox convert just to marry you. (Did I understand that part of the Israeli marriage law correctly?)

I'm just not sure how much your being an EU citizen but not a Finnish citizen, and being just arrived to Finland yourself, complicates the granting of her RP.

[grmmph]

If asked in an interview why you waited to get married until in Finland, you have a perfectly good answer that your wife didn't want to become an Orthodox convert just to marry you. (Did I understand that part of the Israeli marriage law correctly?)

LOL
That's a funny interpretation.
We are both jewish so we can legaly get maride, but it will have to be a religious ceramony. We will have to pay for a Rabbi, we would be forced to have only kosher meals at the wedding, My wife's father will have to sign a "traditional" deal with me, that actually said that he sold her for me.

All those things makes me wonder how my country joined the OECD so easily.

I'm just not sure how much your being an EU citizen but not a Finnish citizen, and being just arrived to Finland yourself, complicates the granting of her RP.

Well.. there is nothing I can do about it, but the embassy and the police department said it should be okay. Let's hope for the best.

[Kutittaa]

As AldenG said, it's the same application. Just make sure that you provide proof of 2.5 years of knowing each other (cohabitation) and also state that you are married and provide proof of that too (obviously). They both just reinforce each other.

On top of that, either learn Finnish or learn English properly (bother preferably)... without either, you'll have a ridiculously hard time here grmmph.

[AldenG]

LOL
That's a funny interpretation.

Yeah, I was remembering a mishmash of the Wikipedia article on marriage in Israel, which I actually bothered to read, and wasn't fitting the pieces together quite right. For instance that you're both Jewish, that she was the Israeli in any case, and so on. But if one of you were not Jewish, there'd have to be an Orthodox conversion, right? Or else marry abroad as you are planning.

Orthodox halachic rules apply to converts who want to marry in Israel. Under these rules, a conversion to Judaism must strictly follow halachic standards to be recognised as valid. The rabbinate even scrutinizes Orthodox conversions, with some who have converted by orthodox authorities outside of Israel not being permitted to marry in Israel. For example, a man who converted to Orthodox Judaism in the USA was denied an official marriage in Israel on the grounds that his conversion may not have been legitimate and that the Orthodox rabbi who converted him in Louisiana is not recognized in Israel.
<snip>
According to an editorial in The New York Jewish Week:

As a result, non-Orthodox Jewish couples are forced to submit to an Orthodox marriage ceremony with an Orthodox rabbi and are compelled to attend classes on family purity.Family purity[›] No Israeli may marry outside his faith community. Hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens from the former Soviet Union who are not Jewish or whose Jewish ancestry is in doubt are unable to marry at all inside Israel.

[grmmph]

Exactly. Or if we just say it out loud: No interfaith marriage allowed.
Actually two weeks a ago our only gay parliment member suggest a law to allow civil marriages for everyone (include same-sex marriage), and it was embarrassedly denied. (something like 20% was voted for this law)

Anyway, enough talking about me. Back to the original topic.