Will I feel good in Finland?

[vagrant]

I am sorry to disappoint you but genetically Russians and Ukrainians are pretty much the same. R1a are the largest haplogroup in both countries, Russians have larger genetic diversity and quite large percent of finno-ugrians and turik gens (N group) especially in northern and siberian regions, while Ukrainians are more affected by Iranian – Iberian and balkan gens.
Russian south territories share almost same genetics with Ukrainians.
Culturally, I need to admit, there are some differences.
P.S. In Finland and central Europe you will always “Russian”, in best case ex-soviet, but seriously, I do see why Baltic countries are offended by that (sharing no common history and genetics with Russia), but Ukrainians? Were not all USSR general secretaries Ukrainians (except 2 first)? You guys built the evil country, you should be round of Yourself .


We are not ashamed to talk with Russian ... mfortable.
You will feel good, surely

[vagrant]

double post - deleted

[UkrainianGuy]

I am sorry to disappoint you but genetically Russians and Ukrainians are pretty much the same. R1a are the largest haplogroup in both countries, Russians have larger genetic diversity and quite large percent of finno-ugrians and turik gens (N group) especially in northern and siberian regions, while Ukrainians are more affected by Iranian – Iberian and balkan gens.
Russian south territories share almost same genetics with Ukrainians.
Culturally, I need to admit, there are some differences.
P.S. In Finland and central Europe you will always “Russian”, in best case ex-soviet, but seriously, I do see why Baltic countries are offended by that (sharing no common history and genetics with Russia), but Ukrainians? Were not all USSR general secretaries Ukrainians (except 2 first)? You guys built the evil country, you should be round of Yourself .


We are not ashamed to talk with Russian ... mfortable.
You will feel good, surely

Well, I may trace roots back to Swedish people

Then in the 9th century Swedish Vikings sailed along rivers into the heart of Eastern Europe. Some of them settled in Ukraine. In 882 a Viking named Oleg captured Kiev and it became the capital of a powerful state.

http://www.localhistories.org/ukraine.html

The Rus' (Slavic: Русь, Swedish: Rus, Greek: Ῥῶς) were a group of Varangians (according to the so-called Normanist theory, these were Vikings, predominantly from the present-day country Sweden).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus'_people

I have no idea where did you find Iranian roots. It is also good to see demographics of Ukraine
We have lots of different people: can you imagine 156,566 Hungarians, 144,130 Poles and 91,548 Greeks among us?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine

But the point is not about genes. Here in Singapore we have pretty much nice Singaporean Chines. I was in Shanghai this year - it is pretty much different. It is about your choices: if you respect, you will get it back.
When, overseas, if we say Russian - people think about Russian Federation. Not too much people know that in Slavic languages the world 'русский', not 'российский' translates to English also as Russian, but have a different meaning: 'from Kievan Rus'.
That is why we need to maintain our brand by telling that we are Ukrainians and people of different kind, simply, because we make other choices, respecting our neighbors, and expect different results.

[foca]

I do see why Baltic countries are offended by that (sharing no common history and genetics with Russia), but Ukrainians? Were not all USSR general secretaries Ukrainians (except 2 first)? You guys built the evil country, you should be round of Yourself .

You are quite wrong about the " common" history of some Baltic nations and Slavic people. As a matter of fact there is no common history of Baltic nations, one of them Lithuanians ones were the creators of the biggest country in Europe , while others - Estonians ,Latvians , Livs etc. were never present as a separate nation on the maps of Europe ( in so called " historic" times ). As for the Grand duchy of Lithuania , 70 per cent of its population was Slavic and the language of administration was so called old Belorussian : there are hundreds of documents of 13-16 century written in Slavonic in Vilno. Most of grand dukes of GDL were married (at least ones) to Russians, namely daughters of Tver, Polatsk etc. counts - that goes for Jagello, Olgerd, Keistut, Vitovt etc. A number of Russian (moscovy) noble families are of Lithuanian origin , such as Golitsini. At a later stage Lithuanian nobility mixed with poles , becoming finally fully polonised. So much for no common history....

[foca]

Well, I may trace roots back to Swedish people

Then in the 9th century Swedish Vikings sailed along rivers into the heart of Eastern Europe. Some of them settled in Ukraine. In 882 a Viking named Oleg captured Kiev and it became the capital of a powerful state.

http://www.localhistories.org/ukraine.html

The Rus' (Slavic: Русь, Swedish: Rus, Greek: Ῥῶς) were a group of Varangians (according to the so-called Normanist theory, these were Vikings, predominantly from the present-day country Sweden).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus'_people

I have no idea where did you find Iranian roots. It is also good to see demographics of Ukraine
We have lots of different people: can you imagine 156,566 Hungarians, 144,130 Poles and 91,548 Greeks among us?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine

That is why we need to maintain our brand by telling that we are Ukrainians and people of different kind, simply, because we make other choices, respecting our neighbors, and expect different results.

It seems that the guy wants to be anything but Russian , if he finds a theory that Ukrainians' forefathers were Pharos he will definitely stick with it. Even if Normans came and mixed with slavic population (which is most probably true, though there are different theories on origins of Ruric) they are to the same extent forefathers of moscovy Russians as much as to present day Ukrainians. But who can stop you believing? Be a norman for all practical purposes, drop your Slavic language, learn islandic and be happy - no one will ever call you Russian, I can even tell you where to buy a horned helmet.

Iranian blood is very much present in Ukrainians ( perhaps truly more than in present day Russians) - think of sarmats and skifs (kurgans) who lived nearby for quite a long time.

So Ukranians is a brand? Well go to the beaches next to 3 star hotels in Egypt and you will see that Ukranian and Russian brands are equally the same, drunk, loud and unpretentious. The "choices and results" are absolutely the same.

Ukranians generally have a problem with national identity. Poles wanted them to be poles and catholic, Germans tried to make them if not a separate nation but at least neither Poles nor Russians - Austrians invested so much in creation of a separate language by sponsoring Franko and Kotsubunskiy., And Russians of course wanted them always to be just Russians.
Try and find first editions of Franko's books - present day Ukranians do not understand 'mova' invented by him and other German sponsored authors.

In a way it resembles the problem with a separate Austrian identity. They always say they are not Germans.....

[mrjimsfc]

Lithuanians were the creators of the biggest country in Europe.

Was Finland influenced by the overall wickedness and evil of the Lithuanian Empire?

Well, I guess so!

[foca]

Lithuanians were the creators of the biggest country in Europe.

Was Finland influenced by the overall wickedness and evil of the Lithuanian Empire?

Well, I guess so!

Is it Jagello the wicked in the middle?

[vagrant]

"A number of Russian (moscovy) noble families are of Lithuanian origin , such as Golitsini. At a later stage Lithuanian nobility mixed with poles , be combining fully polonised. So much for no common history.... "

Of Lithuanian origin– but where is a common history? , Finno-ungaric of “Lithuanian origin’’ were married to Finnic-Ugric of ‘’Russian origin’’ (e.g. Rurik monarch family).
BTW, Golitsyni share roots with Ruriks and also belongs to N1C1 (finnic origin) as do oldest russian and polish aristocracy , but that is just few percent of population in Russia currently, if you meant that by common history, then I agree.
The fact that territory of modern Poland, Baltic states and Russia were intensively populated by N1c1 (Finnic-Ugric tribes) 500-1000 years does make current nations (slavs and balts) closer.
Poles are currently Slavic (R1a y-haplogroup)
Balts are mixture of Finnic (N1) , Slavic (R1a) ,Germanic (R1b)
Russians (mostly) and Ukrainians are Slavic (R1a)

"In a way it resembles the problem with a separate Austrian identity. They always say they are not Germans....."
Hmm, I might be wrong but I think I can distinguish south Germans , Austrians and Swiss.
Servus !

[Vit]

//////

[foca]

"A number of Russian (moscovy) noble families are of Lithuanian origin , such as Golitsini. At a later stage Lithuanian nobility mixed with poles , be combining fully polonised. So much for no common history.... "

Of Lithuanian origin– but where is a common history? , Finno-ungaric of “Lithuanian origin’’ were married to Finnic-Ugric of ‘’Russian origin’’ (e.g. Rurik monarch family).
BTW, Golitsyni share roots with Ruriks and also belongs to N1C1 (finnic origin) as do oldest russian and polish aristocracy , but that is just few percent of population in Russia currently, if you meant that by common history, then I agree.
The fact that territory of modern Poland, Baltic states and Russia were intensively populated by N1c1 (Finnic-Ugric tribes) 500-1000 years does make current nations (slavs and balts) closer.
Poles are currently Slavic (R1a y-haplogroup)
Balts are mixture of Finnic (N1) , Slavic (R1a) ,Germanic (R1b)
Russians (mostly) and Ukrainians are Slavic (R1a)

"In a way it resembles the problem with a separate Austrian identity. They always say they are not Germans....."
Hmm, I might be wrong but I think I can distinguish south Germans , Austrians and Swiss.
Servus !

Common history is when people live for 400 -500 years in the same state, governed by the same rules , go to the same wars, have common friends and enemies , same goals and beliefs. That is what Poles , Lithuanians and Russians had. Not only noble families moved between Moscow state and the Lithuanian state. At times whole clans moved between the countries, such were Olgerdovichi some of whom moved completely to the Moscow state and took part in the Kulikovski battle on the Russian side. They moved with their dependents and soldiers , families and sometimes even with serfs. Grunwald battle was fought by a united army of Lithuanians, Poles and Russians (from Smolensk and pinsk) . Together Poles and Lithuanians fought off Germans and Tatars and often Russians from Moscow state.
If it comes to that , does Finland and its people have common history with Sweden?
Besides R1a is quite common in India due to common indo-aryan ancestry . Do Russians have common history with Indians ?
And where from comes the idea that both Lithuanian and Russian nobles share Finno-Ugric roots? As for Ruric , we know very little of his origins , we don even know if he ever existed, lest we know of his gene pool ( most certainly not Finnic).

[vagrant]

And where from comes the idea that both Lithuanian and Russian nobles share Finno-Ugric roots? As for Ruric , we know very little of his origins , we don even know if he ever existed, lest we know of his gene pool ( most certainly not Finnic).

most certainly not Finnic

Oh guy, you must be Swede, ?

Previously it was just an assumption (quite popular, in fact) , now it is proven by genetic research. Many descendants of the noble families from Eastern Europe and Russia (including documented descendants of RuriK family) participated in the project (some dna samples were taken from burials)

You can check markers of the people from the table on webpage.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/rur ... fault.aspx
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... /ydna.html

There are many other articles and websites, just search for Rurikid Dynasty , DNA , genetics

[stwpt]

Will I feel good in Finland?

No. Can't wait to go back to my country

[foca]

And where from comes the idea that both Lithuanian and Russian nobles share Finno-Ugric roots? As for Ruric , we know very little of his origins , we don even know if he ever existed, lest we know of his gene pool ( most certainly not Finnic).

most certainly not Finnic

Oh guy, you must be Swede, ?

Previously it was just an assumption (quite popular, in fact) , now it is proven by genetic research. Many descendants of the noble families from Eastern Europe and Russia (including documented descendants of RuriK family) participated in the project (some dna samples were taken from burials)

You can check markers of the people from the table on webpage.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/rur ... fault.aspx
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... /ydna.html

There are many other articles and websites, just search for Rurikid Dynasty , DNA , genetics

Which proves what? Does it prove that Lithuanians and present day Ukranians and Russians share no common history ?- that was the point of my messages. It is not genes that make you belong to a certain culture and it is not a certain paternal haplogrup that determines your relations with neighbors. As a matter of fact it seems that Lithuanians and present day Latvians share N1c1 more often then Esonians, 40 agains 35 per cent . And what if Ruric's wife ( who we know not) sinned a little bit with a nice looking horse groomer of Finnic origin and forgot to tell about it to her husband? - some reality for DNA researchers. Or what if Igor was an adopted son of a comrade killed in battle, or what if he was really a son of Oleg's who just used the boy to support his claim to power?
And I am not a swede .I am of Polish-Lithuanian and Russian decendancy and I do come from a Gedeminid family.

[vagrant]

And what if Ruric's wife ( who we know not) sinned a little bit with a nice looking horse groomer of Finnic origin and forgot to tell this to her husband? - some reality for DNA researchers.

Well, maybe , finns are nice

Not all the families take the roots from Rurik, but they share common "finnic" dna , that would mean that at least 5 (perhaps much more) women at different time scale would found fins "nice" =) Statistically it looks quite opposite that much later in Rurik dynasty someone found horse groomer of Slavic origin "looking nice" =)

Please do not take it seriously, I personally equally enjoy Russians ( of course, since I am Russian) Poles, Fins, whatever.
Cheers!

[time traveler]

Note to self:
- Racism has gotten more complicated.
- Possible that our ancestors were joined at the hip at some point.
- Must run DNA tests first and determine level of racism based on number of mutations.