Overstayed in Finland while married, need some advice <3

Miusa · Post by **Miusa** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:33 am

Hi everyone, and thanks ahead of time for any help or advice offered.

Here's my story:

I had been in a relationship for a bit over 4 years with a Finnish man, and we finally agreed that I should go there and we'd get married and live happily ever after and such. So, after reading a lot on the migri website and this forum, I went there last December, and for one reason or another, we got married in March. So yes, we're legally married.

Based on what we had both read from the migri website and other people's experiences, it seemed like once you were married to a native finnish citizen, you were legally allowed to stay there. However, what we didn't know was that the law meant "Once you start to apply for your residence permit, you are legally allowed to stay there in the duration you're waiting for it."

Money was really tight for us, and lo and behold, by the time we had enough to apply for the permit, it was June, and as we start applying, we suddenly realize....holy crap, my passport is due to expire in January, and the rule is it can't expire within a year of application. Well, fiddlesticks. That's another 90 euros to save for, so we start to do that.

Then, disaster strikes back in the states around late october, and I have to return to the states due to my father passing away so I can attend his funeral. (My mother paid for my plane ticket (one way, unfortunately), as I had no other means to pay it at that time, since all the money I earned from my freelance work was going to groceries, bills and saving up for the residence things, same as my husband's money.)

Anyways, on my way back, I got pulled aside from passport control for overstaying (quite a long time at this point). I produced my marriage certificate and explained to the lady everything that had been happening, and how we both had been confused as to the real meaning of the law, both believing what we were doing had been legal, and that when we went to apply for the permit, we realized we had to renew the passport and would have had to also wait on that and such. I was pretty much in tears the entire time, and almost missed my flight out, but she was really nice about the whole ordeal.

She said they were fining me 200 euros for my overstay and gave me a paper that had a bank account number and everything to pay it into, and an email if I wanted to contest it. It was all in finnish, however. They gave me back my passport and documents and everything and sent me on my way. There was no irregular stamp in my passport, it was stamped as usual, just she wrote "-242" in a ballpoint pen inside the stamp. She didn't say anything about me not being allowed back in the country, or banned from it, or punished in any way besides just being fined, or if it would effect me in any negative way besides financially.

Now, sadly, guess whose bag containing said fine got stolen when she got back to the states? Yep. My marriage certificate and the fine were in there. I was hoping they'd send me the fine again in the mail, since they did ask for a mailing address in the states, but so far, nothing has arrived, and I've been here since November 4th.

What concerns me is... I want to go back to Finland, where I've been living with my husband, and continue our lives and stuff and get the residence permit and everything. (I know I can do that here, and I will probably work on it, but it's an easier process there from what it seems like.) However, I'm really worried about the fine. I have no idea where to go to get a copy of my fine so I can pay it, or if it being unpaid prevents me from being allowed re-entry into finland, regardless I'm married to a finnish citizen.

I don't have the money to risk buying a ticket just to be turned away, so if anybody has any experience or advice with this, it'd be much appreciated. I mean, we were trying to do everything by the rules, just the rules themselves were a little hard to understand. Any help or advice at all is greatly, greatly appreciated. I just want to get back to my husband and my home.

**Sponsor:**

rinso · Post by **rinso** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:33 am

If I look at your story, there are some fishy elements in it.
- overstaying
- no money
- unpaid fine
- papers stolen.
For a border guard that is enough to deny you entry. So it is indeed wise not to jump on the next plane to Helsinki.

The 242 is probably the time you (over)stayed in Finland. Since it is almost 3 times the allowed period, they probably will deny your entrance until it is "balanced" again. So expect to be banned from the Schengen area till at least mid 2013.

The best thing for you to do is apply for a residence permit in the US and wait.
But for that to be successful you have to prove your marriage and pay the fine.
Overstaying once will probably have no effect on the decision.

Creech · Post by **Creech** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:10 am

I so wish I could help. I know that in Tampere at least there's a place where foreigners could go to if they need help or guidance with something. I guess that' it's more for things like questions about tax papers and more simple issues. I just tought, maybe there is some place where you can mail to and just explain your situation? Or else the police or some other authority, I think even if you write to the wrong address they might forward you to someone else? I wish you the best of luck, and keep your head up.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:27 am

Miusa wrote: Based on what we had both read from the migri website and other people's experiences, it seemed like once you were married to a native finnish citizen, you were legally allowed to stay there. However, what we didn't know was that the law meant "Once you start to apply for your residence permit, you are legally allowed to stay there in the duration you're waiting for it."

Yes, it only says so explicitly. One American, one Finn, presumably one native English and on Finnish speaker and neither of them manage to read the rules better...?

Money was really tight for us, and lo and behold, by the time we had enough to apply for the permit

What is it, 150€ about? Couldn't find anything to take pawnshop, cut food budget for survival limit for a month? You lived here without a health insurance (or chance to social benefits) because you could not come up with 150€?

Any help or advice at all is greatly, greatly appreciated. I just want to get back to my husband and my home.

Start asking from reasonable places (not internet message boards). As far as I understand, the the authority that would have banned you from entering Finland/Schengen area would be the Finnish immigration service (other potential locations to ask from: police, Finnish embassy). Find out if you have an active ban. Probably more likely because of the overstay, for not paying the fine. If so, how long it is going to last and can it be appealed/overruled (for example if you'd need to apply visa because of it for your next trip, would it be reasonable the application to be accepted?).

Of course the other option is to get the residence permit while still staying in USA. Considering you seem to be badly short of money it would probably be the smartest thing to do even without any official problems. But find about any possible ban beforehand even in that case - I think they will ask about also in the application forms.

Also find about that fine. Even if it would not prevent you from entering the country, you can not expect to live here and not pay it - and the sum is not going to get smaller the longer you wait.

It make take some trouble to find out the answers. Your husband is perhaps legally unable to find them out for you (as he isn't you), while most part you have to do your conversations with phone, email and regular mail - but answers to those questions you must find, and get them from official sources.

AldenG · Post by **AldenG** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:06 am

Finland Forumer daryl has not visited since late August of this year, but I believe he once wrote here that someone married to a Finnish citizen cannot be denied entry. It will be a lot of work to look through his 500+ posts, but so many of them are about situations similar to yours that you might learn something useful.

If you could succeed in contacting him via PM (some users receive email notification of PM's), and if he would volunteer a few paragraphs of his insight, he is an extremely knowledgeable fellow -- probably the single most knowledgeable Forumite on these immigration questions. In some form I do not quite understand (since I don't think he's a lawyer in Finland and I don't know if he is an actual lawyer anywhere, though he sure sounds like one), he has apparently participated in Finnish court and bureaucratic proceedings relating to immigration and been instrumental in getting some decisions reversed on points of law.

If I'm remembering the right person, that is. I have a vague memory that he had a football club logo for an avatar but I'm not seeing that now. Anyway someone will surely clarify any confusion about who I'm referring to.

You or your husband can get a new certificate from the population registry that states you are married to your husband. That's what Finland uses instead of original documents, anyway.

Rosamunda · Post by **Rosamunda** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:15 pm

I think your husband needs to get actively involved. He could start by contacting Migri and asking them to re-issue the fine. Did you report the theft of your bag to the police in the States? Then you should send a copy of that report to your husband so he can show it to the authorities.

You said you were "freelancing". So did you have an ID number? How did you manage to find work if you didn't have a RP?

GWolf2012 · Post by **GWolf2012** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:47 pm

As far as I know, if you are legally married to an UE citizen you can always enter at least to the country of your wife/husband.
Of course the Finland Embassy must be contacted, they can check (and I think can produce a paper) your marriage status, (also your husband can contact them) and issue a visa (schengen area or only to Finland if your fly is USA-Finland without changes) on your new passport.

Normally the police can't put the wife/husband of an UE citizen inside the blacklist, (there are exception specially if you commit some law offences, but not for visa expired or similar)
Howerer I think that Finland Embassy can help you also to check if you are blacklisted (they can't issue the visa in that case)

I don't see too many problems about your case, what I see is only too much laziness about bureaucracy stuff from you and your husband.

Pursuivant · Post by **Pursuivant** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:54 pm

The "marriage certificate" is just a piece of paper. You/ he can get a new one with a phone call and send it to you. What I'd suggest is to apply for the RP from the States while you are there. The embassy/consulate needs you to show up to be fingerprinted and show the original documents, but you can scan and submit the application electronically to sperd things up. With an RP card in hand you won't have any ambiguity over things, and can start working or get onto an integration plan right off the plane.

Problem overstaying the Schengen also is, immigration is where you land at first, and they will look in the computer and won't be amused neccessarily - so it will be a hassle.

The police issued the fine, so it'll be in their registers, your hubby could try and call and get the thing sorted. Of it goes into collection it craps your credit record.

And next time you read the rules don't "think" they have any nice options.

rinso · Post by **rinso** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:06 pm

Guido2046 wrote:As far as I know, if you are legally married to an UE citizen you can always enter at least to the country of your wife/husband.

This is way to optimistic. A marriage license is not a paper that is accepted for border control. You need a visa or a residence permit (or come from a visa free country). Your passport/visa/residence permit will grant you entry. But with a overstay remark in the passport it is a simple bureaucratic no at the border. (You are probably not even allowed to board the plane).

GWolf2012 · Post by **GWolf2012** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:23 pm

rinso wrote:
GWolf2012 wrote:As far as I know, if you are legally married to an UE citizen you can always enter at least to the country of your wife/husband.
This is way to optimistic. A marriage license is not a paper that is accepted for border control. You need a visa or a residence permit (or come from a visa free country). Your passport/visa/residence permit will grant you entry. But with a overstay remark in the passport it is a simple bureaucratic no at the border. (You are probably not even allowed to board the plane).

I didn't write that with a marriage paper you can enter inside Finland.
I write that if a person is legally married with an UE citizen you can go to the embassy and they will issue a visa (or at least find what to do to get one).

Rosamunda · Post by **Rosamunda** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:11 pm

Miusa wrote: I have no idea where to go to get a copy of my fine so I can pay it, or if it being unpaid prevents me from being allowed re-entry into finland, regardless I'm married to a finnish citizen.

Yes, it does.

http://www.migri.fi/finnish_citizenship ... bligations

"I have no idea..." is not an excuse. You just need to be a bit more proactive. You can find the email address or the phone number of Migri and contact them (or get your husband to do it). They will probably wonder why you waited so long before contacting them and they might not believe your story if you can't prove what happened.

http://www.migri.fi/contact_information

If you can post on here, then what's stopping you sending an email to Migri?

Adrian42 · Post by **Adrian42** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:23 pm

Rosamunda wrote:
Miusa wrote: I have no idea where to go to get a copy of my fine so I can pay it, or if it being unpaid prevents me from being allowed re-entry into finland, regardless I'm married to a finnish citizen.
Yes, it does.

http://www.migri.fi/finnish_citizenship ... bligations

That page talks about requirements when applying for citizenship.

Irrelevant for this thread here.

Rosamunda · Post by **Rosamunda** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:41 pm

Yes. My bad.

But if I were in her position, I think I would settle the fine before I applied for a RP, on whatever grounds.

Adrian42 · Post by **Adrian42** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:51 pm

Guido2046 wrote:As far as I know, if you are legally married to an UE citizen you can always enter at least to the country of your wife/husband.

Such "As far as I know" advice from clueless people on the internet has already brought many people into serious trouble.

Guido2046 wrote:I don't see too many problems about your case, what I see is only too much laziness about bureaucracy stuff from you and your husband.

We are talking about a person who has 90 days visa free stay in the Schengen area and overstayed that by 8 months. That is a huge problem.

The relevant legal questions are how that affects:
- future visa-free entry to the Schengen area and
- visa decisions and
- RP decisions

And we haven't even started talking about the legal status of her "freelance work" - I doubt the Finnish government knows about that, and I don't think the Finnish police would be amused if it ever heard about it.

Adrian42 · Post by **Adrian42** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:16 pm

AldenG wrote:Finland Forumer daryl has not visited since late August of this year, but I believe he once wrote here that someone married to a Finnish citizen cannot be denied entry. It will be a lot of work to look through his 500+ posts, but so many of them are about situations similar to yours that you might learn something useful.

Someone on the internet said something...

"Based on what we had both read from the migri website and other people's experiences" is what brought her into trouble in the first place, there's no point in her repeating that mistake.

What this couple needs is not semi-clueless reading of semi-clueless advice from semi-clueless people like us on the internet. What they need is reliable advice. And the only reasonable option is that her husband goes to a lawyer.

Even when a spouse might have a basic right to join her husband, that might not necessarily still be true when she has an 8 months overstay on her record.

Is there any realistic chance of her entering Finland in 2013 at all? How will an 8 months overstay affect the chances of her RP application? Or would it be the best option for the couple to move to the US for a few years? She is already in trouble, and anything other than asking a lawyer for advice might make the problem worse.

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