Family legal advice in Finland

dusty42 · Post by **dusty42** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:39 pm

Hi all,

In 2009 I met a swedish/finnish girl living in the UK and we started a relationship.In March 2011 we found out that she was pregnant and in November 2011 our son was born. She had a difficult pregnancy and birth(suffering from depression) and in march of last year we broke up. Initially she was going to remain in the UK, although soon after decided she needed to return to finland, which I can to some degree understand as she needed the support of her family. At the time she made a lot of promises about keeping me involved in our son's life and said I could visit him at any time. I did seek legal advice at the time, but did not act on the recommendations as I believe my son is best off with his mother. Since leaving my ex has become increasing resistant to my seeing our son. On my first visit I was able to spend three full days with him, but on subsequent visits she has found reasons to limit our contact. In june I asked her to commit to allowing me to see our son once a month, for a couple of months she refused to commit to this. So I asked if she would attend mediation, which she grudgingly agreed to. During the mediation we reached agreement that I would pay £300 a month child support and that she would allow me contact once a month with our son.

In reality I have not been able to afford to go on a monthly basis. I have a mortgage to pay, bills etc and the child support. I have been able to visit my son only 4 times since she left with him last march. Over this time it has become clear that my ex wants to entirely cut me off from him. She now refuses to tell me anything about him and does not involve me in major decisions affecting him.

I next fly out on the 17th of January. On previous visits I have seen our son at her mother's house, where they have been living. My ex now says that I cannot see him here and has suggested several 'public' locations for our only contact, including Hoplop, shopping centers or cafes. I do not feel that this is fair. I think I should be allowed to visit my son at his home, as he is only 15 months old this seems like the best place for us to try and form a relationship. I have asked if she will try a second session of mediation but she refuses.

Can anyone offer any advice? All I would like is the chance to build a relationship with my son. I think he also deserves the chance to get to know his father in reasonable surroundings.

Can anyone advise me on sources of legal advice in finland?

Also, I agreed to the £300 child support that my ex asked for, is this a normal amount to be paying in Finland for a child under 2 years? It's more than is generally paid in the UK from what I understand. It's not that I begrudge giving the money for my son, but I am also paying hundreds more just to visit him and with all my other costs it is sometimes a struggle.

Any advice is really appreciated, I feel so isolated from my son, she is also teaching him swedish which I only speak a few word of, but I miss him so much and desperately want to be part of his life. Perhaps the only answer is to try to move to finland.

**Sponsor:**

rinso · Post by **rinso** » Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:08 am

During the mediation we reached agreement that I would pay £300 a month child support and that she would allow me contact once a month with our son.

So this is the official deal both parties are committed to.
If she doesn't keep her end of the bargain, you can discuss it with the mediator (she cannot prevent you that contact).
If you cannot pay anymore you can also discuss that matter with the mediator.
When both parties cannot/will not comply with the agreement, a new deal must be made. An official mediator can call a new meeting.

But don't get your hopes up to high. She has much more room to wriggle than you.

blackdragone · Post by **blackdragone** » Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:14 pm

Actually you named one of the main reasons why foreigners move to Finland. Your story is pretty common and many men I know moved here after they divorced/broke up with their Finnish woman, just to be able to keep in touch with their sons and daughters.

Anyway... probably the best thing for you is to get an actual lawyer, but if you want a preliminary advice I can suggest you this free of charge service:
http://www.asianajajaliitto.fi/asianajo ... apaivystys
There you can have a panoramic on the situation and then decide what to do.

Good luck

Paola

dusty42 · Post by **dusty42** » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:02 am

Rinso:
Yes the agreement is as you stated and legally binding. I also agreed to my ex having sole custody, I thought on the basis that I would still be kept involved in decisions affecting our son, but I have not been involved in anything. As the agreement is in finnish I can not even read it, perhaps it was a mistake signing something in a language foreign to me.

I have emailed both of the mediators I have had prior contact with, but I am yet to receive any response. I've tried calling too, but they have been unavailable. I will try phoning again tomorrow. Although she so far has not prevented contact, she has done what she can to make it unpleasant/difficult. My guess is that she is doing everything to deter me from visiting our son, not because that is in his interest, but because it is what suits her now. Sounds a harsh thing to say I know, but that is really what this feels like. Asking me to only have contact with our baby son in public places does not seem very fair and while not actually against what was agreed, I feel is certainly not in the spirit of the agreement, or very reasonable.

Yes, regarding wriggle room, I had come to this same conclusion. I find this whole thing so frustrating and frankly just wrong. I have done nothing to deserve not being able to see my son once a month in reasonable surroundings, I should not be having to fight for that right.

Thank you for your advice, I will try to get a further mediation arranged, hopefully resulting in a more explicit agreement.

Blackdragone:
That you say this is a common occurrence is intriguing. When my ex and I broke up it was all on fairly good terms. I took the day off and drove her and my son to the airport(not a nice thing to have to do). She made a lot of promises about supporting me in being a father to our son, I certainly had no inkling of what was to come. Refusing to tell me anything about him seems particularly cruel, she also refused to allow me to attend his first birthday party or his naming.. to me these events /should/ be about the child first and foremost and parents /should/ be able to put aside any differences.

Thank you for the link, I will investigate further. At the moment I am completely in the dark and trying to find out about how things work in finland online is not very simple. Understanding where I stand and what rights I have under finnish law would be a good place to start.

Again, thank you both.

rinso · Post by **rinso** » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:45 am

Understanding where I stand and what rights I have under finnish law would be a good place to start.
.
Yes the agreement is as you stated and legally binding. I also agreed to my ex having sole custody,

It is very simple; your rights are limited to the literal text of the agreement.
"Not in the spirit of the agreement" is a very weak argument in a Finnish court.
You're fighting an uphill battle I fear.

As the agreement is in finnish I can not even read it, perhaps it was a mistake signing something in a language foreign to me.

At least you should have it translated so you know the details of what is agreed.

That you say this is a common occurrence is intriguing. When my ex and I broke up it was all on fairly good terms.

She was on your territory in a fragile state of mind. She didn't want to complicate things with a stressful situation.
At home she wanted to eradicate her history with you by creating problems so you would stop coming.
As Blackdragone said, your case is not exceptional.

enkeligod · Post by **enkeligod** » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:40 pm

Another child struggling case hmmm.. There are a lot of children that does not know their father here in Finland , your case maybe be +1, but when will it stop ?

blackdragone · Post by **blackdragone** » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:43 pm

@dusty42 if you go for that free legal advice service go in advance. I was there today 15 mins before the opening hour and there were just 3 spots left! I tell you because I understood you'll be staying little time here, so maybe you have just a couple of chances of exploiting it

Amandine.K · Post by **Amandine.K** » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:51 pm

That is good to know. I was going to go but my meeting ran late. I guess I need to be there super early then!

Oombongo · Post by **Oombongo** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:08 pm

Not intended to hijack the thread but is it possible if :
1. she (or any lady under these circumstances) can come after him say after 3+ years to ask for child support for all these years?
2. if yes, can she involve EU, Finnish and/or British court in this matter?

Adrian42 · Post by **Adrian42** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:06 pm

Oombongo wrote:Not intended to hijack the thread but is it possible if :
1. she (or any lady under these circumstances) can come after him say after 3+ years to ask for child support for all these years?
2. if yes, can she involve EU, Finnish and/or British court in this matter?

He is paying so far, so 1. is not relevant here. The answer to 1. depends on the applicable law.

The applicable law is one question (AFAIK it tends to be the law of the residence of the child), what court will rule is yet another (I'd guess it would be a Finnish one in this case).

No court at the EU or higher level is involved in such a decision (except in rare appeal cases).

One example for the general difficulties:
One partner of a married German couple with children living in France files for divorce in Germany. The German court will then decide on the divorce based on German laws. And the German court will decide on the child support based on French laws.

If you have any serious reason (other than just curiosity) why you need the answer to such questions, you really should ask a lawyer who is specialized in that area.

dusty42 · Post by **dusty42** » Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:49 pm

It is very simple; your rights are limited to the literal text of the agreement.

I understand that currently that is basically the case, this would be what a lawyer might say. I was more questioning what rights I would have if the case was decided in a finnish court. My ex has said the same thing to me about literal interpretation, but really there has to be some intention to honour the spirit of the agreement or it is useless. For example the agreement says I should be able to see my son once a month, so sticking to this literally my ex could let me see him for 1 minute from 100 metres away and be literally compliant. No, for this kind of thing to work there needs to be some 'will' and good intention on both sides. True that arguing about the spirit of the agreement in court would be folly, but an argument that I am not being allowed reasonable contact with my son should be heard and considered(imo). If we both lived in the UK, I would be able to see him every week, no question. I would like to understand, whether; if I moved to finland the same would be true.

Yes I am fighting an uphill battle and I am tired of it. But I will not stop. As I said I have done absolutely nothing to deserve being cut off from my son.

I will get the agreement translated.

She was on your territory in a fragile state of mind. She didn't want to complicate things with a stressful situation.
At home she wanted to eradicate her history with you by creating problems so you would stop coming.

This may well be an accurate analysis/description. But there is still right/wrong. What she has done has been very selfish, and imho putting her own interests before those of her child, not a desirable trait in a parent. She made a bad choice, had a baby with someone she changed her mind about, she should take responsibility for her choices, she is an adult(30yoa). Allowing me to have reasonable contact with my son once a month is not a lot to ask.

if you go for that free legal advice service go in advance

Thank you, I will do.

rinso · Post by **rinso** » Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:58 pm

I understand that currently that is basically the case, this would be what a lawyer might say. I was more questioning what rights I would have if the case was decided in a finnish court. My ex has said the same thing to me about literal interpretation, but really there has to be some intention to honour the spirit of the agreement or it is useless.

The Finnish system gives much more value to the contract than other countries. "Unreasonable" or "unfair" are no arguments. Contract is contract.
If the contract doesn't specify a value, than interpretation is possible within the context of the contract.
But in your case your ex has sole custody so her interpretation will often prevail.

If we both lived in the UK, I would be able to see him every week, no question. I would like to understand, whether; if I moved to finland the same would be true.

Not under the present contract. It totally depends if your ex is willing to grant you more time.

This may well be an accurate analysis/description. But there is still right/wrong. What she has done has been very selfish, and imho putting her own interests before those of her child, not a desirable trait in a parent. She made a bad choice, had a baby with someone she changed her mind about, she should take responsibility for her choices, she is an adult(30yoa). Allowing me to have reasonable contact with my son once a month is not a lot to ask.

I agree. It would be good if somebody made your ex understand that.

dusty42 · Post by **dusty42** » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:22 pm

If we both lived in the UK, I would be able to see him every week, no question. I would like to understand, whether; if I moved to finland the same would be true.

Not under the present contract. It totally depends if your ex is willing to grant you more time.

I think her granting me more time is fairly unlikely. Meaning the options are either to try and renegotiate a more explicit agreement allowing me more contact, she has refused to try the mediation again but if I ask the child supervisor to request a meeting perhaps she is more likely to agree.

Or, I move to finland, get a lawyer and ask the court to decide how often I should be allowed to see my son. What I am getting at, is,- ignoring the current contract: If a couple with children living in finland split up and continue to both live in finland, but are unable to decide visitation between themselves, so end up in court. If the court rules on frequency of contact for the non resident parent to have with their children, is 'weekly' contact the likely outcome?

rinso · Post by **rinso** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:35 am

What I am getting at, is,- ignoring the current contract: If a couple with children living in finland split up and continue to both live in finland, but are unable to decide visitation between themselves, so end up in court. If the court rules on frequency of contact for the non resident parent to have with their children, is 'weekly' contact the likely outcome?

The standard solution is: once every two weeks and every other holiday. But it also depends on the situation of the parents. If they live far apart the frequency can be lower.

Or, I move to finland, get a lawyer and ask the court to decide how often I should be allowed to see my son.

The likely outcome would be according to the present contract.
Once a months is a frequency that is often used to give the children some stability/avoid frequent traveling. It is not considered "unfair" to the father.

but if I ask the child supervisor to request a meeting perhaps she is more likely to agree.

You could start with "changed situations" and "unable to pay" that would break open the contract (be aware you have to prove it).
A new contract/mediation would be necessary.
But if you play the money card, it is likely you end up with a much lower frequency.

rinso · Post by **rinso** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:53 am

On previous visits I have seen our son at her mother's house, where they have been living. My ex now says that I cannot see him here and has suggested several 'public' locations for our only contact,

Having sole custody it is her right to do so.

Over this time it has become clear that my ex wants to entirely cut me off from him. She now refuses to tell me anything about him and does not involve me in major decisions affecting him.

If the mother is not willing to let you be part of his life, you'll become at best a remote "uncle".
She will find a new relation and her new friend will become your sons "daddy".
He will not be able to communicate with you until he gets to the secondary school and learns more English. By that time his world and his relations are already set in stone.

and does not involve me in major decisions affecting him.

Again; sole custody.

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