Minimum shift hours is 4? HOTEL N RESTAURANT SECTOR

[kelz1305]

Hi,
I am seeking an answer to this but still after 2 weeks no reply from the union.
In hotel and restaurant work ( cleaner)on a 30 hr perminant contract . ( but hours actually worked are full time)
I have read in other sectors that the least amount of hours you can be asked to come in to work for a job is 4 hours?
Does it apply under the hotel and restaurant sector too?


The thing is, can my boss put me down to work 6 hours in one job during the day or nothing during the day and then later that evening ( 9.30 pm) have me to come in again for just 1 half hours?

I would love to know what very one had to say.

Thanks a lot in advance

[cors187]

http://www.pam.fi/fi/tyo/Taskutessit/Ta ... _netti.pdf

[kelz1305]

Thank you ,
Thing is I've read that already. Doesn't mention it in there . Unless I missed it. This is why I'm asking as I've only " heard" via conversations and then tried searching it . They only placebo read it was for pam in commercial .

[cors187]

I can tell you why you don't get an answer form your union.
The working hours act,is a national document , yet under collective agreements it can be changed according to specific reason in different sectors etc etc.
In short , its another retarded example of why a person needs to keep referring to document after document and no one knowing the exact surety unless they hold the over riding document as evidence.Every part of business and every part of life is like this in Europe.Europe is retarded.
You must feel retarded not knowing your rights? I feel retarded .

re·tard·ed

Adjective
Less advanced, esp. mentally, than is usual for one's age.

Its like your always having to ask mummy and daddy whats this and that all about, thats retarded,lol
Anyway unless the collective agreements which you work under change the working hours act then this working hours legislation may be effective,maybe,lol

Section 4. Working hours
The time spent on work and the time an employee is required to be present at a place of work
at the employer’s disposal are considered working hours.
Daily periods of rest as referred to in section 28 or based on agreement are not included in
working hours if the employee is free to leave the place of work during these times.
Travel time is not included in working hours if it does not constitute work performance.

Section 5. Stand-by time
An employer and an employee can agree that the employee is required to remain at home or
otherwise available to be called in to work when necessary. Stand-by time is not included in
working hours. The length and frequency of stand-by time must not excessively disrupt the
employee's free time.
Upon agreeing on stand-by, the employer and employee must also agree on remuneration for
it. The restrictions imposed by stand-by on the employee's use of free time must be taken into
consideration in the amount of the remuneration. At least half of the time the employee
spends on stand-by at home must be remunerated either in pay or by corresponding free time
during regular working hours.
If stand-by is necessary due to the nature of the work and for extremely compelling reasons, a
civil servant or an officeholder in a public corporation cannot refuse to do it.

Section 9. Regular working hours based on a collective agreement
[b]Employers or nationwide employer organizations can agree by collective agreement with
nationwide employee organizations on regular working hours which do not comply with the
provisions of sections 6-8[/b].

Section 13. Flexible working hours
By way of derogation from section 6 (1), and from the collectively agreed regular working
hours and arrangement thereof, an employer and an employee can agree on flexible working
hours allowing the employee, within set limits, to determine the beginning and the end of the
daily working hours. When agreeing on flexible working hours, agreement must also be made
at least on the fixed working hours, the limits of flexibility within 24 hours, the timing of rest
periods and the maximum accumulation of hours in excess or falling short of the regular
working hours.
When working hours are flexible, the regular daily working hours shall be extended or
reduced by a flexible period of no more than three hours. The average weekly working hours
may not exceed 40. The maximum accumulation referred to in subsection 1 above may not
exceed 40 hours.
An employer and an employee can agree to reduce hours accumulated in excess of regular
working hours by free time granted to the employee.

Section 17. Additional work and overtime
Additional work refers to work done on the employer's initiative which does not exceed the
regular working hours prescribed in sections 6 or 7, agreed under sections 9, 10 or 12, or
referred to in section 14.
Overtime refers to work carried out on the employer's initiative in addition to the regular
working hours referred to in subsection 1.

Section 18. Employee's consent
The specific consent of the employee is required each time overtime is required. Employees
can, however, give their consent for short set periods if the nature of the work arrangements
so requires.
Employees can be required to work additional hours only with their consent unless additional
work has been agreed upon in their employment contract. In such cases, however, employees
are entitled to refuse additional work on days which are entered as free time on the work shift
schedule, provided they have a justifiable personal reason.
Upon agreeing to be on stand-by as referred to in section 5, an employee simultaneously
consents to any additional work and overtime required during the stand-by time.
If the nature of the work and particularly compelling reasons necessitate additional work or
overtime, civil servants or officeholders in a public corporation cannot refuse to do it.

Your employer has a bit of bargaining power, you should be under a certain agreed scheme that as a result offers insight into the flexi hours, regular hours you are working under.

[cors187]

finally found it , bit of a challenge, tested my Finnish copy and paste skills for sure.
The agreement seems to be a mixing of other agreements!
The agreement applies to employees under the Working Hours Act. The following agreements are applied as a part of the collective agreement:
– General agreement (LTK-SAK) 15 November 1990
– Employee representative agreement (MaRa- PAM) 1 April 2010
– Agreement on work safety activities (MaRa-PAM) 1 April 2010
- Cooperation agreement (MaRa-PAM) 1 April 2010
– Recommendation concerning the prevention of substance abuse, handling of substance abuse matters and referring to care (SAK, EK etc. 12 January 2006)
– Agreement regarding workplace dining (LTK-SAK) 12 February 1976
– Minutes regarding compensatory fines (LTK-SAK) 26 January 1988
– Agreement concerning the withholding of union membership fees (LTK-SAK) 3 April 1989
– Training agreement (MaRa-HRHL) 1 January 1994.
– Recommendation concerning work-based learning (SHR-PAM) 8 March 2006

its in finnish so you have to get a fin to rake through it
http://www.finlex.fi/data/tes/stes4143- ... nt1204.pdf

[cors187]

I think kelz means this, doesnt apply to the other agreements though unless specified.

http://www.pam.fi/fi/tyo/Taskutessit/Ta ... _netti.pdf

Shifts of less than 4 hours shall not be used at the
workplace unless required by a justifiable reason or
requested by the employee.
•
If an adjustment period is used, the employer shall
draw up a working hours adjustment system in
advance, during the use of which the working hours
shall be equalised to a maximum average of 37.5 or
40 hours
•
The adjustment system shall show each week’s
working hours, and employees shall be notified of it
at least one week before it takes effect.
•
The work schedule shall be drawn up for at least
one week at a time and employees given at least one
week’s notice before it takes effect.

[kelz1305]

Cors187 thank you very much for everything you have put towards answering or helping my question that I have asked. And you copied and pasted the correct response for roger_roger. That is exactly what I had read. And also in the hotel I work in I have heard my boss( who is also an employee of the hotel ) say that they needed help from the cleaning lot in the kitchen as the hotel employer didnt want to call any waitresses or kitchen help as they'd have to pay them for at least 4 hours work. And they didn't need them for that long? So another thing I heard . And as waitresses etc are under the same sector as I am I just wondered.

And from personal experience with the same employer and proof from PAM she has not exactly treated us fairly . She has lied and is very muniplitive. She has allowed my self and many others ( all foreigners ) to work stupid hours too many and never once spoke of or even paid a penny of overtime ! And as I said pam has the evidence of this ,but as we do not speak Finnish as of yet to at least not good enough try find another job ( as expected, and i know its doesnt happen over night to find one and quitting is just not an option) we just wanted to keep the peace .but we let her know after that we were aware of the laws and rules of overtime. Since then she hasn't put us down more than we can do. ( we , I mean my partner and I)

And she does this on purpose ( " I won't employ Finnish people cause they don't work" from her mouth . But I'm sure what she means is she can't fool them and steal their money . She already had one Finnish girl before we stsrted 2010 try take her to court but it was settled outside court. So hence why I'm trying to find out things before I say anything to her. But it does feel horrible when as you said " asking mummy and daddy"


I can see how in many ways the bosses have a lot of control or ways around things and that sucks big time!
Considering the company is so small in a personal opinion , there should be more respect for the few people that work for them and more communication and meetings to agree upon new job loads and that the people working for you are happy to carry out the hours and times that they consist of.especislly those employees who have a family. But that's my Opinion. Never happened yet so not expecting it to. Just think it would be nice.

So basically I have to put up with this the way it is and work these stupid hours traveling 14 km there and 14 kn back just for 1 half hours!

[Rosamunda]

So basically I have to put up with this the way it is and work these stupid hours traveling 14 km there and 14 kn back just for 1 half hours!

You sound like Rant Brat, you always have choice to say I cannot work if you don't like the work.

No, most people certainly do NOT have that choice. They cannot take the risk of losing their job. How many immigrant workers (or even Finns???) are hired with a permanent contract nowadays? If you make a fuss they refuse to renew your contract.

Employees should NOT be expected to travel to a job for only 1-2 hours work. That is unreasonable and outrageous. I think the original poster has perfectly understood their situation (they are being exploited). Not all Finnish employers treat their staff that way but many do.

One of my children works in the restaurant business - he worked in some dismal places before he got a decent (permanent) contract with an excellent employer (part of S- Group). Now he is treated well and I guess he will think hard before he moves on somewhere else. He belongs to PAM. I believe PAM has people who can give legal advice in English.

If you are a member, then contact them directly. If you are not, you should join.
http://www.pam.fi/en/work/workshifts/Pages/Default.aspx

[kelz1305]

No, most people certainly do NOT have that choice. They cannot take the risk of losing their job. How many immigrant workers (or even Finns???) are hired with a permanent contract nowadays? If you make a fuss they refuse to renew your contract.

Thank you very much for your back up there.
I did not want to start fighting on this post as its bit what I came here for.
I know most of my right. As I said before from experience already. And pam may not make the law but they certainly know it and know how to advice in it.

And as I said I can't and won't do anything to risk losing my job, even in the case when she wronged us.
This is also the case here. I do not want to tell her I do not want to work those hours without knowing my rights before I do so.
And as it happens , as long as I have the hours to fill the contracted hours I am not obliged to do this , as extra work.
I have told my boss I am unhappy do to this job and she for now told me I have to do the next 2 rotated weeks of it.
I'm happy with this response.
BUT I do not have high hopes it will be a good outcome.
2 weeks is long enough for her I come up with some muniplitive lie as she always does .
But maybe just maybe she lets it go.

Thank you for those who have supported me. And your replies.

[cors187]

finally found it , bit of a challenge, tested my Finnish copy and paste skills for sure.
The agreement seems to be a mixing of other agreements!
The agreement applies to employees under the Working Hours Act. The following agreements are applied as a part of the collective agreement:
– General agreement (LTK-SAK) 15 November 1990
– Employee representative agreement (MaRa- PAM) 1 April 2010
– Agreement on work safety activities (MaRa-PAM) 1 April 2010
- Cooperation agreement (MaRa-PAM) 1 April 2010
– Recommendation concerning the prevention of substance abuse, handling of substance abuse matters and referring to care (SAK, EK etc. 12 January 2006)
– Agreement regarding workplace dining (LTK-SAK) 12 February 1976
– Minutes regarding compensatory fines (LTK-SAK) 26 January 1988
– Agreement concerning the withholding of union membership fees (LTK-SAK) 3 April 1989
– Training agreement (MaRa-HRHL) 1 January 1994.
– Recommendation concerning work-based learning (SHR-PAM) 8 March 2006

its in finnish so you have to get a fin to rake through it
http://www.finlex.fi/data/tes/stes4143- ... nt1204.pdf

If you really are covered under the hotel restaurant agreement then the 4 hrs minimum shift is in there

Less than one year fixed-term contracts the minimum kolmiviikkoisjakson
-
mäistyöajan will take place during the duration of employment.
If a part-time employee actually does more work so much that he is no longer
be considered to be a collective agreement within the meaning of the part-time employee, the emergency
-
agree with her monthly payment following the date change
beginning of the month.
The foregoing provisions shall not apply separately if necessary, invited to work
workers.
Part-time employee shall not be considered an employee who works in the collective agreement
12 § 4 or 5 the basis of paragraph 90 or 105 hours over three weeks.
3. Shift length
Of the shift to be at least four hours in length. The employee's request or Friday
-
reasons on why this shift may be shorter. Reasonable cause may be related

But no matter if you are or are not on that agreements ,i think you will find that your under a local bargaining agreement which gives you power to agree with the employer on the specifics of every detail.
That means you have to front up to the Main employer and ask to know what local bargaining agreement is in force at your place of work.
This is why no one can answer your questions because only the main employer and the staff agree on them"AFAIK".
For example Bar20 gives you a KM adjustment and extra 1 hr pay because they called you back on the same Normal shift hrs regardless of if its only 1 hr shift, so the bargain would be 2hrs+KM adjustment.
In your case if they figure out you are a 14km cost , they might call the 2 km worker.(just examples)
-

[kelz1305]

Some great stuff there! Thanks!

I presume the main employer in this case is her!
She own her own company. Her main employer ( contract ) where most of her work comes from permanently is the hotel. But the job I'm referring To is ONE of her other jobs she has a contract for. She just uses the hotel as her base! I think she knew the hotel owners a long time and its like a friendly thing!
So yeah she is the MAIN employer
And our main title on the contract with 2 collective bargaining agreements:

Puhdistus-ja siivousalan työntekijoitä koskeva ( kipa)
Marjoitus- ja ravitsemusalan työntekijöiden koskeva tes.

So I expect that many will start to contradict one another now.
:/

[kelz1305]

In the task section On the contract say

työtehtävät: HOTELLI-ja RAVINTOLASIIVOUS

And under the

TYÖAIKA

I agreed on working Sundays but there are no agreements to extra hours or night work. Or any other agreements.

[cors187]

This is from your exact agreement

Inappropriate short shifts should be avoided. Less than four hours työvu
and should not be used in the workplace, unless reasonable cause or the employee's needs this prev

Actually if you refer back to the English pocket collective agreement you will discover it hints that if a 4 hr shift is reached , then a break needs to be implemented.Because there is so much local bargaining arrangements i think that's the only true way it can be expressed.
Theres no law in that agreement that says you get paid a minimum shift (4hrs)

duty
on-call agreement
Working Hours of the reserve
presence in addition to emergency services can be agreed upon.
On-call agreement should be made in writing

Although you leave your work, if they ring you up again its like your on call,So you can bargain the extra.

[kelz1305]

That's fantastic! Thank you ever so much for helping me like this and finding specific information for me. I really appreciate it so much.

[Rosamunda]

I asked my son what the minimum shift is in his work place (Sokotel Oy) and he said 4 hours.