Will I feel good in Finland?

[cors187]

From what has been gathered from haplogrous

You going to have to explain that if you can?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map-o ... ations.jpg
World map of human migrations, with the North Pole at center. Africa, harboring the start of the migration, is at the top left and South America at the far right. Migration patterns are based on studies of mitochondrial (matrilinear) DNA. Dashed lines are hypothetical migrations.

Numbers represent thousand years before present.

The blue line represents area covered in ice or tundra during the last great ice age.

The letters are the mitochondrial DNA haplogroups (pure motherly lineages); Haplogroups can be used to define genetic populations and are often geographically oriented. For example, the following are common divisions for mtDNA haplogroups:

African: L, L1, L2, L3
Near Eastern: J, N
Southern European: J, K
General European: H, V
Northern European: T, U, X
Asian: A, B, C, D, E, F, G (note: M is composed of C, D, E, and G)
Native American: A, B, C, D, and sometimes X

[cors187]

I mean cmon , look what they gave the Australian aboriginals, the most non straight line out of any group with the inclusion of the longest dotted line.As if to say "how did they do that!"

[foca]

Guys, my whole point , if you look at the original remark, is that these listed people have lost their true nationality, religion and identity, they became something else . No true Finn, Latvian or Jew would consider them as their own. Having lost all their national and religious identity they have lost their moral grounds and have forgotten everything that their mothers had taught them. So I can not have a grudge against them as a Finn, Latvian and a Jew but only against them as communists. There is no other underlying antisemitic or racist statement.
The prevailing idea in the USSR ( which failed miserably, as most of communist crap) was to mould a new "soviet" nation free of all national, religious and etc. notions. And yet i cannot say it never failed completely, many people believed in the idea. Thus (to a certain extent, of course) it is not correct to use the term "Russians" when applied to the Red Army during the Winter war for example.

[foca]

Or speaking about more recent history, the founders of Russia were Swedes .........

When did that happen? Did I miss something in the Russian history? To start with even if Rurik was a Scandinavian (which theory is not shared by all scientists), there was hardly any "swedes"at that time in the current sense of Swedish identity...

Whether Rurik is a historic person or just fiction is disputed, but the majority of both historical and genetic evidence supports that the Rus people were from what is today Sweden (and also genetically Swedes).

Actually genetic evidence says that most of Ruric's decendants belong to n1c1 haplogrup which is called Finnic haplogrup. There is an extensive study http://www.familytreedna.com/public/rur ... ction=news concerning the origins of Rurikid family. Of course historically it can not be proved if Igor ( Rurik's son ) was actually his on by birth ( same goes to Svaytoslav , his grandson) , but starting from Svaytoslav all Rurikids belong to Finnic haplogrup. Of course, there are people in Sweden who belong to this haplogrup but it is not DNA that makes a group of people into a nation. The origins of the term Rus is so disputed that there is no real reason to bring it here. All Slavs who lived in that territory actively mixed with Germanic, Finnic and Turkic peoples to become what is known Kievan Russians. New Russian nation "Velikorossy" have more Finnic and Turkic blood and is relatively young and stand very far away from Scandinavian influence, much further than the people who lived in 9-10 century in Kiev

[foca]

One of my grandfathers was convicted by " troika" , consisting of:
1. Nurminen Arvo ( obviously Finn)
2. Socelovatis Ingvar ( Latvian??)
3. Marmelstein Iosif ( Jewish)

I am guessing by "troika" , you are referring that he was convicted or spy/espionage, "running secret info".?

Troika literally means "a group of three". It was a simplified way to try people applied within a certain period of the Great purge. My grandfather was concurrently found to be Polish, German, Japanese and somehow French spy....quite a lot of work for one guy

[llewellyn]

Your listing of Jews as people is a highly antisemitic approach that is rarely used since it was used for the holocaust.

Either you list all people by their religion (was that Nurminen Arvo a Christ?), or by their nationality (that Marmelstein Iosif surely had a nationality).

Hmm, I don't really get this. Judeaism is not one your prozelytizing religions, but historically happens (by and large) to be connected to a specific ethnic group. It surely is not antisemitism to note this fact? If I remember correctly it's also an option in the American census to be listed as Jewish regardless of your religious faith, just as an ethnic category.

edit: I did not remember correctly - this is not possible in the US Census which seems bit odd. Anyway the Wikipedia article below, surely not anti-semitic, says among other things this:

Because Jewish identity can include characteristics of an ethnicity, a religion, and citizenship, the definition of who is a Jew has varied, depending on whether a religious, sociological, or ethnic aspect was being considered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F

[Adrian42]

Your listing of Jews as people is a highly antisemitic approach that is rarely used since it was used for the holocaust.

Either you list all people by their religion (was that Nurminen Arvo a Christ?), or by their nationality (that Marmelstein Iosif surely had a nationality).

Hmm, I don't really get this. Judeaism is not one your prozelytizing religions, but historically happens (by and large) to be connected to a specific ethnic group. It surely is not antisemitism to note this fact? If I remember correctly it's also an option in the American census to be listed as Jewish regardless of your religious faith, just as an ethnic category.

edit: I did not remember correctly - this is not possible in the US Census which seems bit odd. Anyway the Wikipedia article below, surely not anti-semitic, says among other things this:

Because Jewish identity can include characteristics of an ethnicity, a religion, and citizenship, the definition of who is a Jew has varied, depending on whether a religious, sociological, or ethnic aspect was being considered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F

And if I edit this Wikipedia article, it might say something completely different tomorrow... (Wikipedia is often a problematic source of information providing one-sided information in disputed topics.)

When you have a Finnish citizen with Christian religion and a Finnish citizen with Jewish religion, and you call them "a Finn and a Jew", then you are deep in the logic that led to the Holocaust.

(On a sidenote, the logic we Germans used during the Holocaust for determining how much of the blood of a person is Jewish (e.g. "three quarter Jew") is completely distinct from whether the person considered himself to be a Jew, or any Jewish definitions of who is considered a Jew.)

Using the religion instead of the nationality is often done for emphasizing that you don't consider someone part of your nation. Traditionally Jews have often been a victim of that, today the most common victims are Muslims.

[llewellyn]

Using the religion instead of the nationality is often done for emphasizing that you don't consider someone part of your nation. Traditionally Jews have often been a victim of that, today the most common victims are Muslims.

Well, anti-semitism comes in many shapes: one is actually denying Jewish ethnicity and claiming that a person is just Latvian or Russian or German who only happens to belong in the Judaic religion or whose ancestors happened to be that. Nazis were of course different with their particularly crazy and nasty "genetically" based version.

To my understanding no-one denies that Jewishness has also an ethnic dimension. Anyway, I would not patronize the English Wikipedia which is one of the wonders of the modern world, but for what it's worth I bet that Encyclopedia Britannica has a practically identical article too. And this is what the - admittedly relatively Orthodox - Judaism 101 says:

It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions, and being Jewish is like a citizenship.

http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm

[Adrian42]

And this is what the - admittedly relatively Orthodox - Judaism 101 says:

...

http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm

This site is created, written and maintained by Tracey Rich. I do not claim to be a rabbi or an expert on Judaism

http://www.jewfaq.org/author.htm

[Adrian42]

To my understanding no-one denies that Jewishness has also an ethnic dimension

That is true for all religions, e.g. half of all Catholics are living in America but Catholicism is relatively rare in Asia.

The problem is how that is being abused.

Usually the religion of a minority is emphasized instead of the nationality only when that person has done something bad.

In the Western world it is rarely emphasized that someone is a Christian when he has done something bad, the victims of that kind of minority blaming are usually Jews or Muslims.

But ask Christians from Egypt how the Christianity is emphasized when one of them has done something bad.

When a Finnish Lutheran and a Finnish Jew committed a crime together and someone speaks about "a Finn and a Jew" that is the most anti-semitic expression possible in that situation.

[llewellyn]

When a Finnish Lutheran and a Finnish Jew committed a crime together and someone speaks about "a Finn and a Jew" that is the most anti-semitic expression possible in that situation.

Well, er, m'okay - I thought that we were talking about the fact that you seem to be denying the ethnic dimension to Jewishness when that dimension is pretty universally acknowleged, I mean that there undeniably is such a dimension. If you agree that you can speak of that very distinctive characteristic (separating Judaism clearly from the other monotheistic religions) without being anti-semitic (though you can obviously speak about it also in a very anti-semitic fashion), we are totally fine, and you get off the hook.

[AldenG]

From outside, the USSR appeared to succeed much better in what it aimed to destroy than in what it aimed to create.

Even so, it found it could not eradicate ethnic, national, and religious differences, prides, and resentments. Yet little seems to have thrived in its wake but criminality and official corruption.

Do these things look any different to an insider?

Does any non-political, non-state-sponsored high art or other high culture remain in the affected countries?

[Rip]

When a Finnish Lutheran and a Finnish Jew committed a crime together and someone speaks about "a Finn and a Jew"

and who is supposed to have said that?

[Tiwaz]

From what has been gathered from haplogrous

You going to have to explain that if you can?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map-o ... ations.jpg
World map of human migrations, with the North Pole at center. Africa, harboring the start of the migration, is at the top left and South America at the far right. Migration patterns are based on studies of mitochondrial (matrilinear) DNA. Dashed lines are hypothetical migrations.

Numbers represent thousand years before present.

The blue line represents area covered in ice or tundra during the last great ice age.

The letters are the mitochondrial DNA haplogroups (pure motherly lineages); Haplogroups can be used to define genetic populations and are often geographically oriented. For example, the following are common divisions for mtDNA haplogroups:

African: L, L1, L2, L3
Near Eastern: J, N
Southern European: J, K
General European: H, V
Northern European: T, U, X
Asian: A, B, C, D, E, F, G (note: M is composed of C, D, E, and G)
Native American: A, B, C, D, and sometimes X

Look at European map of haplogroups.





As you can see, Finns have very distinct N-group in Y-chromosome. Finns also have very strong N-group presence in mitocondhrional haplogroups along with descendant of HV-group.

Thus, it is clear toat Finnish ancestry has not mixed much with surrounding people. In fact, modern day Finns are nearly an island in the middle sea of neighbours with completely different kind of genetic background.
This lends great deal of credibility to Finns being kind of "pioneers" who were first ones to try to get away from their neighbours for more space (some things never change eh?). Had Finns trudged through already established settlements, genetic heritage would have changed on the journey. Instead it has remained distinctly separate.

[Pursuivant]

Thus (to a certain extent, of course) it is not correct to use the term "Russians" when applied to the Red Army during the Winter war for example.

IIRC there was an Ukranian contingent that got decimated, and was quite conveniently "forgotten" in the propaganda it ever had existed.