Identification situation

martip · Post by **martip** » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:42 pm

Hi, I am new to the forum but wondered if anyone could throw some light on a situation I had at work. I am an EU citizen(british) and have lived and worked in Finland for almost 10 year. I have a permanent residence permit and all other necessary numbers( kela, vero).
A situation that seems to be occuring more and more lately it that on the building sites that I work on the main contractor is asking any foreigners to produce their passport to them. I have a passport and also an id card from the police station (which for some reason does not state which country I am from, only xxx)
I questioned why I need to show my passport as unless I need to travel I am not obliged to own a passport and don't really want to take my passport to every construction site that I work on in case it gets lost. I aquired the id card from the police for this very reason but as it does not say the country of citizenship, they say this is not acceptable.
Does anyone know if this practice of demanding that foreigners to produce their passport is even legal or is there any other id card that would be more acceptable.
I asked this of the construction union and they gave me no answer to what would happen if I had no passport, and seemed very uninterested in that this problem could arise.

**Sponsor:**

tjawatts · Post by **tjawatts** » Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:03 pm

Probably related to this

http://www.vero.fi/en-US/Individuals/In ... ax_Numbers

That says all people working on building sites should have a name tag with photo and tax number. If you have that, I dont see why they would need your passport.

T

cors187 · Post by **cors187** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:09 am

My guess is the Main contractor wants to know which country you are from.
I guess they ask when you sign in to their on-site worker books?

martip · Post by **martip** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:09 pm

Yes I know of the tax number on photo id and I have that. Its the idea that only a passport is acceptable as I don't even need a to own a passport, so then what id would be acceptable if me or another person in the same position doesn't own a passport?
I understand their need to check if there are illegal workers and as a foreigner I am ok with showing that, but if they implement these rules then maybe they should understand the working rules first.

cors187 · Post by **cors187** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:19 pm

If your from a better country than finland then your looks tell a thousand words= "check that out(passport), yep that's right i don't have to be here and I've down graded my living and salary %"

I dont think its a problem, at-least you know that the main contractor has resolved his concerns with your passport.

Pursuivant · Post by **Pursuivant** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:50 pm

At some point there was a rule that you had to keep a tally of all the "foreign" workers - but I think that was when the "new" EU countries needed a work permit. Maybe the rule is still there.

Upphew · Post by **Upphew** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:56 pm

Pursuivant wrote:At some point there was a rule that you had to keep a tally of all the "foreign" workers - but I think that was when the "new" EU countries needed a work permit. Maybe the rule is still there.

"Työnantajan velvollisuudet

Työnantajan on varmistettava, että sen palvelukseen tulevalla ja palveluksessa olevalla ulkomaalaisella on vaadittava työntekijän oleskelulupa tai ettei tämä sellaista tarvitse.

Työnantajan työpaikalla säilytettävistä tiedoista tulee käydä ilmi ulkomaalaisen työntekijän henkilötiedot sekä se, perustuuko työntekijän työnteko-oikeus EU - tai ETA-maan kansalaisuuteen, voimassaolevaan työntekijän oleskelulupaan vai muuhun ulkomaalaislaissa säädettyyn työnteko-oikeuden perustavaan seikkaan.

Työnantajan tulee säilyttää työpaikalla tiedot palveluksessaan olevista ulkomaalaisista ja heidän työnteko-oikeutensa perusteista siten, että ne ovat tarvittaessa vaivattomasti työsuojeluviranomaisen tarkastettavissa.

Tiedot voi kirjata esim. ulkomaalaisen työntekijän työnteko-oikeuden peruste -lomakkeeseen (doc-tiedosto 43 kt).

Työnantajan on säilytettävä tiedot ulkomaalaisen palvelussuhteen päättymisestä neljä vuotta. Työnantaja tai tämän edustaja, joka tahallaan tai huolimattomuudesta pitää palveluksessaan ulkomaalaisen, jolla ei ole oikeutta ansiotyön tekemiseen, voidaan tuomita rangaistukseen.

Työnantajan, joka ottaa palvelukseensa muun kuin unionin kansalaisen, tähän rinnastettavan tai tämän perheenjäsenen taikka pysyvällä oleskeluluvalla oleskelevan ulkomaalaisen, tulee viivytyksettä toimittaa työ- ja elinkeinotoimistolle selvitys työnteon keskeisistä ehdoista (mm. pääasialliset työtehtävät, työn kesto ja luonne, palkka, sovellettava työehtosopimus ja irtisanomisaika). Ehdot on lueteltu oleskelulupahakemuksen liitelomakkeessa. Lisäksi työnantajan tulee ilmoittaa työpaikan luottamusmiehelle, luottamusvaltuutetulle ja työsuojeluvaltuutetulle ulkomaalaisen nimi sekä sovellettava työehtosopimus. Tämän velvollisuuden laiminlyöminen on rangaistava teko.

Ulkomaisen työnantajan palveluksessa olevien työntekijöiden työskennellessä urakointi- tai aliurakointityössä tai vuokratyövoimana työnantajan yllä mainittuja velvollisuuksia sovelletaan Suomessa toimivaan pääurakoitsijaan tai pääteettäjään lukuun ottamatta tietojen säilyttämisvelvollisuutta."
http://www.tyosuojelu.fi/fi/ulkomaalaiset

martip · Post by **martip** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:42 pm

Thanks for the replies but I was really wanting to know why they will only accept my passport as my ID card can only be given to a permanent resident and a permanent resident has unlimited right to work.
Therefore my passport only gives proof of nationality but as a permanent resident I do not need to own a passport.
So if I had no passport, what then?

Pursuivant · Post by **Pursuivant** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:59 pm

martip wrote: I was really wanting to know why they will only accept my passport

Because that proves your nationality as an EU, which causes you to not need a workers residence permit.

as my ID card can only be given to a permanent resident and a permanent resident has unlimited right to work.

It still does not "prove" the "reason" why you are allowed to work - as that previous quote of law requires.

Therefore my passport only gives proof of nationality but as a permanent resident I do not need to own a passport.

You don't need to own a drivers license to drive a car either, but for some odd reason you need one when they pull you over.

So if I had no passport, what then?

Dunno, put the gloves on the nail? You could try the "EU-registration" paper they give you from the police station perhaps, as that does "prove" your "reason".

rinso · Post by **rinso** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:00 pm

I think there is a difference between what the rules accept and what the main contractor accepts.

"foreigners -> tax evasion -> trouble -> must show ID -> foreign ID = passport -> all foreigners must show passport!"

martip · Post by **martip** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:29 pm

Permanent residents permit gives unlimited right to work.
http://www.migri.fi/working_in_finland/right_to_work

ID card is only given to permanent residents.
https://www.poliisi.fi/poliisi/home.nsf ... endocument

Nationality has no significance.

As far as I know you do need a driving license to drive a car,
And you do need a passport to travel to other countries.

And the conclusion I will take as the best was from rinse above

martip · Post by **martip** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:36 pm

And btw the paper residence permit was eventually enough alongside the ID card and all is well now, until this situation crops up again

Adrian42 · Post by **Adrian42** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:38 pm

martip wrote:As far as I know you do need a driving license to drive a car,
And you do need a passport to travel to other countries.

Wrong, EU citizens travelling inside the EU need only an ID card from the country they are a citizen of.

Adrian42 · Post by **Adrian42** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:41 pm

Pursuivant wrote:
martip wrote: I was really wanting to know why they will only accept my passport
Because that proves your nationality as an EU, which causes you to not need a workers residence permit.

I guess the main problem here is that the UK does not have an ID card.

martip wrote:I am an EU citizen(british) and have lived and worked in Finland for almost 10 year.

How good are your Finnish language skills?

Acquiring Finnish citizenship (while keeping your British citizenship) would give you a Finnish ID card that states your citizenship.

martip · Post by **martip** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:32 pm

Sorry to correct you but, yes EU citizens only need an ID card to move around europe. EXCEPT : UK and Ireland citizens as they are not part of the the Shengen agreement and even if we had ID cards we would need a passport.
My finnish skills are probably more than adequate but there is very little to reason to become a finnish citizen( which incedently made no difference to a colleague who is a foreign, Finnish citizen but was still asked for his passport )

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