Canadian Moving to Finland

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goodquestion
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Re: Canadian Moving to Finland

Post by goodquestion » Wed May 08, 2013 9:18 pm

Upphew wrote:
jrslv wrote:I read somewhere that the Finnish education system is ranked #1 in the world, which was one of my strongest selling points to my wife, who is rather cool to this Finland idea. What I read here is very discouraging...
Somewhere up there anyways. Finland, South Korea, Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore... somehow I don't see any of those being big with debating things in class. And remember that the education system is for the Finns and we tend to talk Finnish (or Swedish). If you can't talk the talk or walk the walk, then our education system isn't for you.
Canada is ranked high as well ;)



Re: Canadian Moving to Finland

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Adrian42
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Re: Canadian Moving to Finland

Post by Adrian42 » Wed May 08, 2013 10:11 pm

tummansininen wrote:The Finnish language provides a massive advantage to all other languages because it is so difficult/complex.
The Finnish language is not exceptionally difficult or complex, but it is completely different from the indo-european languages.
tummansininen wrote:In addition, they're quickly ahead of other languages because they never have to learn to spell. Think about it, we did spelling lists for, oh, six or seven years of school. What a big waste of valuable school time.
It's actually not Finnish that is the positive exception in that respect, it is English that is the negative exception.

I went to school in Germany, and I've never seen such spelling lists for German (BTW: for obvious historical reasons, the spelling of the Finnish language is actually not that different from the spelling of the German language).
Last edited by Adrian42 on Wed May 08, 2013 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jrslv
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Re: Canadian Moving to Finland

Post by jrslv » Wed May 08, 2013 10:13 pm

tummansininen wrote:Seriously, though, you seem uncommitted to Finland itself, since it's just a parking spot. Choose the UK. If not, choose Sweden, the language is FAR easier and is more useful globally. As a temporary parking space you will just mess up your daughter's learning by coming to Finland.
Well, I have no crystal ball. Maybe I'll fall in love with Finland and won't want to leave it ever. Right now I am fascinated with that place.

I do admire the UK - the progenitor of the anglo-saxon - the free - world! But it's too far from Russia and would be a hard sell inside my company. Sweden is closer, but I feel nothing for them. It's just a blob on the map for me.

With Finland I feel some kind of affinity. My farther's family is from the Russian North and, based on the looks, he comes from the same ethnic stock as Karelians, Komi etc. He himself was born in Murmansk while I was born on the White Sea shores and remember nothing but snow from my early days. I don't like the strong sun here in Ontario - it burns my skin in no time. I am a Northerner!

I appreciate the time and the thought you put into your post. I will reread it again and maybe comment some more, because this is such an important topic.

cors187
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Re: Canadian Moving to Finland

Post by cors187 » Thu May 09, 2013 12:45 am

jrslv wrote:
tummansininen wrote:Seriously, though, you seem uncommitted to Finland itself, since it's just a parking spot. Choose the UK. If not, choose Sweden, the language is FAR easier and is more useful globally. As a temporary parking space you will just mess up your daughter's learning by coming to Finland.
Well, I have no crystal ball. Maybe I'll fall in love with Finland and won't want to leave it ever. Right now I am fascinated with that place.

I do admire the UK - the progenitor of the anglo-saxon - the free - world! But it's too far from Russia and would be a hard sell inside my company. Sweden is closer, but I feel nothing for them. It's just a blob on the map for me.

With Finland I feel some kind of affinity. My farther's family is from the Russian North and, based on the looks, he comes from the same ethnic stock as Karelians, Komi etc. He himself was born in Murmansk while I was born on the White Sea shores and remember nothing but snow from my early days. I don't like the strong sun here in Ontario - it burns my skin in no time. I am a Northerner!

I appreciate the time and the thought you put into your post. I will reread it again and maybe comment some more, because this is such an important topic.
Theres nothing more important to an immigrant than a good English speaking school for the kids.

jrslv
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Re: Canadian Moving to Finland

Post by jrslv » Thu May 09, 2013 1:43 am

tummansininen wrote:Rinso is correct - it's not a cliché. Finns do not have a problem with silence and do not expect conversation. I have sat with co-workers for 30 minutes at the same lunch table, in complete silence. After 3 weeks working with them I know a grand total of two personal things, about 1 staff member (she moved house this weekend and she has a cat). The other 5 people I know nothing about, at all. This is a country where even friends (friends), if they meet on the street and are in a hurry, say nothing except "Moi" and keep going without another word - not even "Hey it's great to see you but I'm in a big rush, we should chat later!"
Somebody wrote here that a kid that is "too social" could be singled/left out.

I am wondering if it's true? Shouldn't a good communicator be valued in a society of poor communicators? I saw it once on TV that Finns prefer to order their pizzas through the cell phone - even when they are already INSIDE the store - rather than facing the task of conversing with the seller. If they are so uncomfortable with talking to other people, shouldn't they just love people with whom it feels easy?

I am puzzled!

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rinso
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Re: Canadian Moving to Finland

Post by rinso » Thu May 09, 2013 8:01 am

jrslv wrote: Somebody wrote here that a kid that is "too social" could be singled/left out.

I am wondering if it's true? Shouldn't a good communicator be valued in a society of poor communicators? I saw it once on TV that Finns prefer to order their pizzas through the cell phone - even when they are already INSIDE the store - rather than facing the task of conversing with the seller. If they are so uncomfortable with talking to other people, shouldn't they just love people with whom it feels easy?

I am puzzled!
Finns are not poor communicators. They just don't like to disturb the silence with meaningless conversations. They say what is need to be said, not to be sociable.
When you're talking all the time at the wrong moments, you become a nuisance in the eyes of Finns.

Adrian42
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Re: Canadian Moving to Finland

Post by Adrian42 » Thu May 09, 2013 11:31 am

jrslv wrote:
tummansininen wrote:Rinso is correct - it's not a cliché. Finns do not have a problem with silence and do not expect conversation. I have sat with co-workers for 30 minutes at the same lunch table, in complete silence. After 3 weeks working with them I know a grand total of two personal things, about 1 staff member (she moved house this weekend and she has a cat). The other 5 people I know nothing about, at all. This is a country where even friends (friends), if they meet on the street and are in a hurry, say nothing except "Moi" and keep going without another word - not even "Hey it's great to see you but I'm in a big rush, we should chat later!"
Somebody wrote here that a kid that is "too social" could be singled/left out.

I am wondering if it's true? Shouldn't a good communicator be valued in a society of poor communicators? I saw it once on TV that Finns prefer to order their pizzas through the cell phone - even when they are already INSIDE the store - rather than facing the task of conversing with the seller. If they are so uncomfortable with talking to other people, shouldn't they just love people with whom it feels easy?

I am puzzled!
There is a difference between communication and content-less small talk.

E.g. there are many companies in Finland where it is normal that noone says "Hi" when he comes to the office in the morning, or "Goodbye" when he leaves the office in the evening.

This not meant to be rude in any way, the company climate can be perfect, and all people working there might be very nice people and helpful to each other.

But it would be pointless to say "Hi", considering that the others in the office anyway see that you are arriving.

In Finland, sober people are supposed to only talk when they have something to say, and keep their mouth shut otherwise.
Last edited by Adrian42 on Thu May 09, 2013 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Pursuivant
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Re: Canadian Moving to Finland

Post by Pursuivant » Thu May 09, 2013 11:54 am

In Finland, sober people are supposed to only talk when they have something to say, and keep their mouth shut otherwise.
Unless they want to be stared at :lol:
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."

jrslv
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Re: Canadian Moving to Finland

Post by jrslv » Thu May 09, 2013 4:48 pm

Adrian42 wrote:There is a difference between communication and content-less small talk.
I see. It's all about the small talk.

Russians are similar to Finns in this respect. The very notion of small talk is viewed with utmost disrespect in Russia, because it implies that you are shallow and pretentious. When I meet new people, we usually start talking business right after the greetings and introductions. Try talking about weather and you will be seen as insincere. It's OK to talk about weather, but only when something significant happened - for example your flight got delayed by a day. But not as a time filler. In fact, the very notion of "breaking the ice" does not exist in Russian - not as a word, not as an expression!

I also think that Russians distrust smooth talkers, because they are afraid of being talked into something they don't need.

Being sincere is key in Russia. You can talk about anything, as long as you're genuine. That's why Russians, especially in social situations, are always trying to quickly cross the impersonal phase and start talking about the real stuff - family, hobbies, politics...

So, I guess, I can see some similarities.

But still, I can hardly imagine Russians sitting in the lunch room quietly for 30 min - there is always somebody telling a joke, talking about work, about something that happened at home, a problem, complaining about something.... there is even a special expression about the situation when several people are sitting together silently: "as in a grave".

cors187
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Re: Canadian Moving to Finland

Post by cors187 » Thu May 09, 2013 5:46 pm

The very notion of small talk is viewed with utmost disrespect in Russia, because it implies that you are shallow and pretentious.
Maybe the Russian think Canadians are crap and theres your disrespect.That makes more sense than your statement.

cors187
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Re: Canadian Moving to Finland

Post by cors187 » Thu May 09, 2013 5:50 pm

rinso wrote:
jrslv wrote:

I am puzzled!
They just don't like to disturb the silence with meaningless conversations. They say what is need to be said, not to be sociable.
When you're talking all the time at the wrong moments, you become a nuisance in the eyes of Finns.
Be puzzled no more .The underlined quote of rinso twisted the truth.
Fins dont have much meaningful things to say.Thats the most correct form!

jrslv
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Re: Canadian Moving to Finland

Post by jrslv » Thu May 09, 2013 7:20 pm

cors187 wrote:
The very notion of small talk is viewed with utmost disrespect in Russia, because it implies that you are shallow and pretentious.
Maybe the Russian think Canadians are crap and theres your disrespect.That makes more sense than your statement.
Well, I am from Russia, originally, so I don't engage in the small talk stuff - I am get-down-to-the-business kinda guy. But when I travel with somebody who is unfamiliar with the local realities and they start a meeting with the weather crap - it feels very fake and awkward and everybody around cringes :roll:

goodquestion
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Re: Canadian Moving to Finland

Post by goodquestion » Fri May 10, 2013 7:46 pm

Hi jrslv,

I can offer my rambling thoughts ... which could be quite the opposite to other views ...

Sometimes I think I am more of a Finn than my wife is.

We spend about 2 months, or longer, per year in Suomi. When we arrive, and for the duration of the trip, the people I know there will not stop talking, and they are Finns. Entire day, talk, talk, talk ... mostly the women, but do not rule out the men as well ... even people we see on the street stop and talk 10-20 minutes, when the only thing I want to do is get going! I say in my mind, "Voi v***u, another one". My wife's aunt is non-stop talking machine, as soon as I see her, until we are out the door ... but I do have to say, I think it has helped my Finnish comprehension by a long mile, considering I get the gist of most conversations (after the first week headache has worn off from the overload). Sometimes I have understood every word in a conversation, and I say "Hallelujah".

On the other side of preconceived notions, I find a lot a negativity, a lot. We bought a new house, and someone we know said, that is such a lonely place (thought they have never been there), so I said to my wife, "We should just all go kill ourselves then." :lol: In group conversations, most things are positive, unless we are talking about the darkness or winter time. Our relatives are a constant barrage of "the sky is falling", and "we should just crawl into a corner and die." I almost find it comical now.

One thing I have noticed, our cousins have small children, and when they were say, 1-3 years, they were very out-going, and very talkative. We come back one year later, and I joke not, these children seem like the life has been sucked out of them, do not look you in the eye, and are practically silent. I thought it might have just been this particular family. We go visit two other family, with children the same age, same thing ... my wife was even shocked. My wife read a paper (do not know where), that says Northern European families (including England), put there kids down tremendously, so they do not think they are "special". I concur, as I see that in my brother-in-law and father-in-law relationship (and previously when my wife interacted with her parents). Constant berating if anything good is accomplished. btw, not saying all families are like this, just the ones I have had a continuing interaction with over the years.

I will say, the Fazer chocolate, coffee, and TV time help tremendously, as well as long walks outside. I like going there, I guess I have become accustomed to everything.

jrslv
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Re: Canadian Moving to Finland

Post by jrslv » Fri May 10, 2013 9:12 pm

goodquestion wrote:We come back one year later, and I joke not, these children seem like the life has been sucked out of them, do not look you in the eye, and are practically silent. I thought it might have just been this particular family. We go visit two other family, with children the same age, same thing ... my wife was even shocked.
It's funny, but I've experienced the same shock, but in reverse :D.

I was accustomed to see little kids that are frightful of adults - just like you're describing, because Russians are also very critical, demanding and often demeaning parents. But then we moved to Israel I found it so strange to see little kiddies approaching you openly, without fear, without watching your moves carefully. It was an eye-opener for me.
goodquestion wrote:Northern European families ... put there kids down tremendously, so they do not think they are "special".
And let me guess, they teach the kids to be modest, never be proud of themselves and never boast, because you can't say anything good about yourself and you must leave this to the others (to praise your work or achievements).

Adrian42
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Re: Canadian Moving to Finland

Post by Adrian42 » Fri May 10, 2013 10:23 pm

jrslv wrote:
goodquestion wrote:Northern European families ... put there kids down tremendously, so they do not think they are "special".
And let me guess, they teach the kids to be modest, never be proud of themselves and never boast, because you can't say anything good about yourself and you must leave this to the others (to praise your work or achievements).
The first part of your guessing is true, the second is not:

Self-deprecation is common among Finns. But they actually believe that this was true, and would therefore not expect praise from others.


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