Finland= my dream!

[gfunho]

Having engineers in your staff does not make your company engineering company. At least not even remotely in the same spirit as companies I listed (list would be far longer for Finland if I took equally lax attitude towards engineering company as you do).
If you check my list, each company designs and manufactures physical goods. Ship engines, elevator systems and so forth. Real, tangible products which are sold to others.

I don't care what you think it is the definition of engineering, but ship engines, elevator systems and other "tangible products" are just a part of engineering. You have a narrow mind about what engineering is (probably because you are not an engineer, you have not studied engineering and you are just going "with your feelings"

What you are using here is the "No true scotmans" fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Wikipedia definition:

Engineering is the application of scientific, economic, social, and practical knowledge in order to design, build, and maintain structures, machines, devices, systems, materials and processes. It may encompass using insights to conceive, model and scale an appropriate solution to a problem or objective. The discipline of engineering is extremely broad, and encompasses a range of more specialized fields of engineering, each with a more specific emphasis on particular areas of technology and types of application.

How does not a company like Telefónica does not fit the definition? Do they apply scientific, economic, social and practical knowledge to design, build and maintain structures, machines, devices, systems and processes? Obviously they do. Of course they do some other things, but in its core, they do engineering. Engineering of Telecommunication structures and networks. (And I know what they do because I have worked there!)



If you get picky about the other activities, then we could even conclude that Nokia is basically a "logistics company".


P.S. About the rest of your post, I am not even going to comment, since you attribute some phrases to me that I have not even said.

[Tiwaz]

I don't care what you think it is the definition of engineering, but ship engines, elevator systems and other "tangible products" are just a part of engineering. You have a narrow mind about what engineering is (probably because you are not an engineer, you have not studied engineering and you are just going "with your feelings"

Perhaps you should then explain why they are called telecommunications companies and not engineering companies.

How does not a company like Telefónica does not fit the definition? Do they apply scientific, economic, social and practical knowledge to design, build and maintain structures, machines, devices, systems and processes? Obviously they do. Of course they do some other things, but in its core, they do engineering. Engineering of Telecommunication structures and networks. (And I know what they do because I have worked there!)

Are you aware that you are referencing to engineering as vwhole field, but within it is engineering subsection which is SEPARATE FROM TELECOMS!
You do not see telecom companies advertise themselves as engineering companies because even they do not think they are engineering companies.
They are telecommunications companies.

A telephone company, also known as a telco, telephone service provider,[1] or telecommunications operator, is a kind of communications service provider (CSP) (more precisely a telecommunications service provider or TSP) that provides telecommunications services such as telephony and data communications access.

They are more like lego engineers. Give them pieces and they do stuff. But they do not design things. At best infrastructure provides may try to modify, or more likely ask manufacturing engineering company to modify, some components to fit better for certain situation.
As said, if we take your approach on engineering, list of Finnish engineering companies explodes even bigger!
We can straight away add Elisa and DNA into the list. Partially Sonera. And so forth.

Which gets us into same situation.... When taking size differences into account, Finland is bigger in engineering than Spain.

[gfunho]

Which gets us into same situation.... When taking size differences into account, Finland is bigger in engineering than Spain.

And I have never claimed otherwise !!! Please, read again my only claim about the topic:

THE LEVEL OF THE SOUTHERN EUROPEAN ENGINEERS (in education and professional competence) IS SIMILAR TO THE FINNISH STANDARD.

P.S. And I gave you alone with the Telefónica info that I posted before a set of subsidiary companies that belong to the Telefónica group that are doing engineering, but you just decided to ignore it. Yes, Telefónica de España S.A. is in principle a telco, a telecommunications operator, but so huge that has incredible amounts of engineering that are part of its core. They don't simply put networks around, they design them and maintain them, they research on telecommunication technologies and they acquire numerous companies around the world that do telecommunications engineering. (It probably has more engineers working for it that Nokia itself.)

[cors187]

This thread is like dumb and dumber.

[bergerrrr]

This thread is like dumb and dumber.

Nobody makes you read it.

[cors187]

I watched dumb and dumber a few times.....

I dont have anything against the thread.

[Tiwaz]

Which gets us into same situation.... When taking size differences into account, Finland is bigger in engineering than Spain.

And I have never claimed otherwise !!! Please, read again my only claim about the topic:

THE LEVEL OF THE SOUTHERN EUROPEAN ENGINEERS (in education and professional competence) IS SIMILAR TO THE FINNISH STANDARD.

No it is not. If they were equally capable, they would not be engineering midgets when taking size difference into account!

P.S. And I gave you alone with the Telefónica info that I posted before a set of subsidiary companies that belong to the Telefónica group that are doing engineering, but you just decided to ignore it. Yes, Telefónica de España S.A. is in principle a telco, a telecommunications operator, but so huge that has incredible amounts of engineering that are part of its core. They don't simply put networks around, they design them and maintain them, they research on telecommunication technologies and they acquire numerous companies around the world that do telecommunications engineering. (It probably has more engineers working for it that Nokia itself.)

And yet, when we compare both on the peak of their success... Which one made more name for it? Which managed to claim bigger share of their core business globally?

Point I have tried to make is that Finnish engineers, like it or not, are so bloody good that Finland, arse end of nowhere, has managed to grab massive portions of global markets. Wärtsilä, KONE, Nokia (at least in it's prime, it still is king in cheaper phones)...
KONE for one has become biggest player in China. Thanks to it's engineers who work in... Finland.

This is not to say Spain has really bad engineers on global scale. But setting them up against countries which are practically specialized in engineers it is inferior. I would not hold Spanish engineer over Swiss either, another country that made precision design sales strength.

[biscayne]

Who wrote "unless he is a registered nurse or has some other desperately needed qualification"??????? Try reading some of my posts on how I (a well qualified registered nurse) could not manage to get a job in Finland......................even speaking moderately ok Finnish. In the end I just gave up. Finland is beautiful, but, amazingly, there are other countries. And, having spent several years in a neighbouring country to Italy, I can just imagine this poor bloke all adrift and wondering why noone has time to spend countless hours rambling from cafe to cafe endlessly chattering. Not meaning to be sarcastic, but that does go on a lot there.

[cors187]

Point I have tried to make is that Finnish engineers, like it or not, are so bloody good that Finland,.

If there is need for another moosehead shaped ashtray,over budget ofcourse i will call finnish engineers.

Are you trying to say that when the finnish engineer goes international and cant hide behind a language hes top gun?????