Someone of the residents expats who have tried the Työkkari?

David Junior · Post by **David Junior** » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:32 pm

Is there any expat among those residing permanently who can give/share their experiences with the services
offered by the Employment Center (the Työvoimatoimisto) :

In particular :

(1) Someone who has tried the Suomen Kielen Kurrssi .. ( 1 year long/6 months ) .. how is it ?

(2) Someone can explain me what is a "trial-contract" TYÖKOKELU

(3) and what is the difference amongst the above mentioned and "Labour-study" TYÖVOIMAKOULUTUS instead

Moreover, I would like to know.

Is this forum frequented just by expats and foreigners residents in finland... or also by FInnish people ?

B.R

David

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David Junior · Post by **David Junior** » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:50 pm

No one answers ..... here ?

Upphew · Post by **Upphew** » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:58 pm

(2) is for the unemployed to check if s/he would like and be capable to do some job. Sweep the floors for a week and flip the burgers for another to realize school might be a good option.
(3) is studies that help you to get your dream job of flipping burgers by putting you to hygiene course and to do an intern period in McD.

http://www.mol.fi/mol/fi/00_tyonhakijat ... /index.jsp
http://www.mol.fi/mol/fi/03_koulutus_ur ... akoulutus/

Pursuivant · Post by **Pursuivant** » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:04 pm

(1) Is a variety of opinions. Because they "make" you do it, you can find people there who don't care but disrupt the class, as well as people who can't read in any language in the starter group, so it can be frustrating. Depends on the group and how you manage it - if nothing else you will learn to say "shut up" in 5 other languages...

(4) Yes, but they don't bite as much after they've been fed.

David Junior · Post by **David Junior** » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:44 pm

Upphew wrote:(2) is for the unemployed to check if s/he would like and be capable to do some job. Sweep the floors for a week and flip the burgers for another to realize school might be a good option.
(3) is studies that help you to get your dream job of flipping burgers by putting you to hygiene course and to do an intern period in McD.

http://www.mol.fi/mol/fi/00_tyonhakijat ... /index.jsp
http://www.mol.fi/mol/fi/03_koulutus_ur ... akoulutus/

Hi Upphew,

Your evaluation sounds quite negative indeed....
as a matter of fact have you tried yourself one of these options (TYÖKOKELU or TYÖVOIMAKOULUTUS) so your opinion is based on facts ?

Seems at least curious that the TE makes job-seekers do "trials" at McDonald just to flip burgers or wash the toilet, I believe that McDonald offers those kind of "positions" already pretty much to anyone asking to fill it and pay them consequently with no need of government bureaucracy .... at least that's my guess.

Are you a foreigner or a finn ?

B.R

David

David Junior · Post by **David Junior** » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:57 pm

Pursuivant wrote:(1) Is a variety of opinions. Because they "make" you do it, you can find people there who don't care but disrupt the class, as well as people who can't read in any language in the starter group, so it can be frustrating. Depends on the group and how you manage it - if nothing else you will learn to say "shut up" in 5 other languages...

(4) Yes, but they don't bite as much after they've been fed.

Hi Pursuivant,

Thanks for the reply.

So would you suggest to try it ? And exactly .. how long does it take, it also says on the website that towards the end of the course there is some sort of (unpaid) "working module", I guess it is to practice the language in the real-life situation of everyday working environment.

May I tell you, it sounds amazing to me the fact that there are people who are there to disrupt the class... I mean... even if they are forced to do it for some reason, isn't it in the best interest of everyone to try and learn the language better as possible ?

May I ask you as well, is this intensiivinen suomen kielen kurssi done in one place/school .. or is it structured so that each part progressing from beginner to intermediate, advanced and so on.. is done at a different spot ? Also it seems that it's a full-immersion experience something from 9 to 5 each day monday to friday .. it's kind of all day long ... does it cut a person off from social life... or is it good also for socialising .. even though one manage to get in touch only with other fellow foreigners apart from the instructor who of course is a mother tongue. Seems a pretty "tough" environment.

Are you an expat or a finn ?

B.R

David

PS: May I also ask you what is your opinion of the TE in general, its services... and what is it for... what kind of goals the TE intends to achieve... to make job-seeker land some meaningful jobor help create a network, gain practical experience ... or is it just a waste of time ... in my opinion I think that the vast majority of people is interested in gaining a foothold in the working world, being them finn or expats... I don't really think that people applying at TE are really interested in the "apuraha" at all.

The real "apu" is either gain relevant education or start with some unpaid work to gain experience, something one can build upon .. I mean... some other activity than flipping burgers or washing toilet.

Upphew · Post by **Upphew** » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:11 pm

David Junior wrote:Your evaluation sounds quite negative indeed....
as a matter of fact have you tried yourself one of these options (TYÖKOKELU or TYÖVOIMAKOULUTUS) so your opinion is based on facts ?

Seems at least curious that the TE makes job-seekers do "trials" at McDonald just to flip burgers or wash the toilet, I believe that McDonald offers those kind of "positions" already pretty much to anyone asking to fill it and pay them consequently with no need of government bureaocracy .... at least that's my guess.

Are you a foreigner or a finn ?

Never heard before about työkokeilu, työvoimakoulutus on the other hand is known to be possibly useless and it might be just a way to haze a unemployed. Or use unemployed/trainee as a free labourer.
And why would McD hire someone and pay him/her when they can get money from MOL and a warm body that doesn't need to be paid. Ok, McD is afaik quite good at hiring people and not using the free labour force.

Something to read for you: http://www.aamulehti.fi/Kotimaa/1194727 ... rkki+.html
You'll probably get the idea with translate.google.com

Finn.

David Junior · Post by **David Junior** » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:25 pm

Upphew wrote:[quote="David Junior"
Never heard before about työkokeilu, työvoimakoulutus on the other hand is known to be possibly useless and it might be just a way to haze a unemployed. Or use unemployed/trainee as a free labourer.
And why would McD hire someone and pay him/her when they can get money from MOL and a warm body that doesn't need to be paid. Ok, McD is afaik quite good at hiring people and not using the free labour force.

Something to read for you: http://www.aamulehti.fi/Kotimaa/1194727 ... rkki+.html
You'll probably get the idea with translate.google.com

Finn.

Thanks for the article.

Apart from the moral considerations of using skilled people for unpaid internship without the intention of hiring them ...
the entire thing, if it is as it looks .. is a total waste of tax-payer money .. both to keep in place the TE system as a whole and to essentially give companies access to free-workforce, without giving nothing back in return to the society in general.

It doesn't help at all to keep people out of work and make them go in circles... like a merry-go-round.

It is definitely a waste of money for the public.

But so if you haven't tried none of those .. you don't have any "direct" experience of the TE ....

Adrian42 · Post by **Adrian42** » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:52 pm

David Junior wrote:It doesn't help at all to keep people out of work and make them go in circles... like a merry-go-round.

It is definitely a waste of money for the public.

A main problem is that some people have the stupid thinking TE could magically create jobs.

When you have 8% unemployment, then no matter what TE does the least wanted 8% of the workforce will always be unemployed.

The only reasonable objective can be to try to keep as many of them as possible (especially the young ones) employable, so when in a few years the economy is back in a better state they will be able to take the jobs that will then be created.

If someone is today 20 without a reasonable chance of getting a job, then it is not a trivial task to ensure that he will be capable of taking a job when the economy will be better in let's say 2020.
A 27 year old who has done nothing during the last 7 years is unlikely to be able to take any job at that point.
A 27 year old who has been kept busy by TE might have a realistic chance of getting one of the jobs that will be available then.

I definitely don't claim that everything TE does is right, but it is clear that during an economic crisis with high unemployment as we have at the moment a merry-go-round for unemployed people is expected.

Pursuivant · Post by **Pursuivant** » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:54 pm

You don't "get it" do you? If you are put on this integration programme you do exactly what you are told - otherwise your benefits are cut and you're not eligible for any TYÖ-related. Its not an "I want" place, its "yes boss" place. If you get lucky with what they offer or can convince them of something being good, otherwise own initiative gets you scraping your ass with a stick.

What comes to these different schemes, they are mainly aimed to "rehabilitate" - youth or immigrants with either no proper vocational education or then the catch-22 of having no work experience to get that work experience, people off their 500 days or waiting to get onto sick leave to get a job as the TE office has to appoint a job for a long-term unemployed so they then have these 1-year placements in say libraries or working in the TE centre itself...

And yes, its cleaning up the statistics, because someone on a course is not "unemployed".

What comes to the "intensiivi" Finnish course - if its 9-5 thats then proper cramming. Back to school in other words. You will have a translatiivi in the end no doubt.

If your greatest worry is screwing your social life then I suggest you don't screw with TE as the last thing there you'll find is a job so its the best for your social life to be a KELA mannequin and partake in park chemistry

I was a KELA mannequin back in 1994 and really they haven't changed any from what I heard from my mates along the years... I had a mate 10 years unemployed mind you...

David Junior · Post by **David Junior** » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:04 pm

Adrian42 wrote:
David Junior wrote:It doesn't help at all to keep people out of work and make them go in circles... like a merry-go-round.

It is definitely a waste of money for the public.

I definitely don't claim that everything TE does is right, but it is clear that during an economic crisis with high unemployment as we have at the moment a merry-go-round for unemployed people is expected.

Hi Adrian,

Thanks for your contribution to the discussion here.

Just trying to figure out what can be possibly salvaged of the TE services ..the idea of doing some merry-go-round that gives in return employability on when the crisis will fade away it's acceptable.

But this also mean that the internships should be meaningful.... if we are talking, as in the above mentioned comments, just of internships at McDonald's to flip burghers and wash the toilets ... it will not make any difference in the future to have that kind of "experience" in the CV... being it sponsored by the government or not.

If we are talking about doing free-work for companies and in the same time also "learning" something useful, good practices in field, and so on... than I see the point... I mean those kind of internship can be aimed at increasing the marketabilty of the job-seeker in the future, for example asking to do possibly something related (or not) to previous studies but at least in listed companies.

Something else than flipping burgers at McDonald's or washing toilets.

cors187 · Post by **cors187** » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:11 pm

people out of work and make them go in circles... like a merry-go-round.

Its a merry-go-round for bachelors and master employment candidates .
I dont even think you have a seat, non skilled is like being ushered in the back gate after the ride is closed and getting to sit on the pony.

David Junior · Post by **David Junior** » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:24 pm

Pursuivant wrote:You don't "get it" do you? If you are put on this integration programme you do exactly what you are told - otherwise your benefits are cut and you're not eligible for any TYÖ-related. Its not an "I want" place, its "yes boss" place. If you get lucky with what they offer or can convince them of something being good, otherwise own initiative gets you scraping your ass with a stick.
.

Hi Pursuivant,

Thanks for the input.

What do you mean when you say "convince them of something being good" .. and also when you are talking about people with no proper vocational training .. what about those who in fact have already a master degree but cannot find employment due to fact of being foreigner and not speaking finnish of course ... is there the possibility to do some un-paid internship at some real company for graduates ?

Pursuivant wrote: catch-22 of having no work experience to get that work experience, people off their 500 days or waiting to get onto sick leave to get a job as the TE office has to appoint a job for a long-term unemployed so they then have these 1-year placements in say libraries or working in the TE centre itself...

.

And also what is this thing of the 500 days, what does it mean exactly ?

Moreover one point .. the so-called quarantine period (karennsi) ... relates to the "benefits" ( for those who are not interested in getting financial benefits.. ) or it refers also to the "research services" of TE mediated internships ?

Also is it possible to use any of the TE offices available .... I read that some offices have better personnel than others ... and how do you switch from one TE office to the other... I read something about it.

Adrian42 · Post by **Adrian42** » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:58 pm

David Junior wrote:But this also mean that the internships should be meaningful.... if we are talking, as in the above mentioned comments, just of internships at McDonald's to flip burghers and wash the toilets ... it will not make any difference in the future to have that kind of "experience" in the CV... being it sponsored by the government or not.

If we are talking about doing free-work for companies and in the same time also "learning" something useful, good practices in field, and so on... than I see the point... I mean those kind of internship can be aimed at increasing the marketabilty of the job-seeker in the future, for example asking to do possibly something related (or not) to previous studies but at least in listed companies.

Something else than flipping burgers at McDonald's or washing toilets.

Even ignoring the CV, any kind of program is already meaningful:

A 30 year old who has during the last 10 years done nothing but watching TV and drinking beer with his friends, and who did not for a single time during these 10 years get out of bed before the afternoon, will never in his life find a job.

Doing an internship where you have to be present at 7 in the morning for cleaning the toilets makes a person used to working and being at work in time, which are the very basics of being employable.

And it might motivate the unemployed person to look for a job he might like more than cleaning toilets - it is completely stupid that Finland has removed the Residence Permit requirement for fruit picking jobs and Finnish companies are on a large scale hiring people in other countries like Russia for that work, while Finnish taxes are being wasted on paying unemployment benefits to healthy young people sitting idle at home.

David Junior · Post by **David Junior** » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:09 am

Adrian42 wrote:
David Junior wrote:

Doing an internship where you have to be present at 7 in the morning for cleaning the toilets makes a person used to working and being at work in time, which are the very basics of being employable .

I see your point...

But than again if that's the treshold.... just be present at work ... it is very very low indeed.
It feels like I should throw away my Ph.D .. all those years of study ...
not to talk about the fact that I don't drink beer nor any alcohol.

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