Someone of the residents expats who have tried the Työkkari?

[David Junior]

ADRIAN,

Your last observation about the finnish government wasting resources on paying unemployment benefits to healthy young people sitting idle at home, draws me to some considerations.

Could it be that there are at least a couple of different perspectives to be considered
when it comes to evaluating the shortcomings of the TE services ?

(1) On one side there is the risk that a certain part of the population, being them uneducated finnish nationals ( but could be also immigrants) for a number of reasons are apt at exploiting a system so as to do the minimum possible opportunistically.

(2) On the other side there is a significant portion of educated people coming from abroad, that even if qualified, find many difficulties to get a position and are eager to work even if this means doing unpaid internships, as long as those activities bring them meaningful contacts and so on. We are not talking about people who drink beer, smoke on the sofa and things like that, but qualified professionals ( not IT ) who actually find very difficult to start working in their respective sector.

Anyway this discussion is very interesting, and offers many points to reflect upon

It seems to me that in the average mind-set .. the idea of TE is associated with some sort of social stigma.. is it so ?

People who go there must be very possibly good-for-nothing, drunkard or opportunists .....

[Adrian42]

Doing an internship where you have to be present at 7 in the morning for cleaning the toilets makes a person used to working and being at work in time, which are the very basics of being employable .

I see your point...

But than again if that's the treshold.... just be present at work ... it is very very low indeed.
It feels like I should throw away my Ph.D .. all those years of study ...
not to talk about the fact that I don't drink beer nor any alcohol.

The average unemployed person does not have a PhD, and many people that are far from the "just be present at work and do your task" threshold.

As for your PhD, the question boils down to what PhD it is and what job prospects you have with it. There are subjects at university where the students already joke that this will only qualify them to flipping burgers, and there are subjects where a lack of Finnish language knowledge or a temporary shortage of jobs are the only problems.

Someone who made his PhD on technologies that are relevant for computer games has completely different job opportunities from someone who made his PhD about some people that vanished from the earth 3000 years ago. In the latter case, there is often a very thin line between becoming a professor and flipping burgers for the rest of your life (there might be only a handful of professors on the subject in the world, and for anything else the whole education is useless).

[Adrian42]

ADRIAN,

Your last observation about the finnish government wasting resources on paying unemployment benefits to healthy young people sitting idle at home, draws me to some considerations.

Could it be that there are at least a couple of different perspectives to be considered
when it comes to evaluating the shortcomings of the TE services ?

That is exactly my point, except that "evaluating the shortcomings" is a too negative starting point.

And it is also important to be aware of the limits of what TE can achieve - most importantly, it cannot create jobs out of the void.

[David Junior]

Hmmmm... yes.

And what about the existence of some social "stigma" hovering on the entire thing... is it so in your opinion ?

Something like .. no matter what.. if you can .. stay well clear of the työvoimatoimisto

All hope abandon, ye who enter in.
(n.d.r)

[Pursuivant]

What do you mean when you say "convince them of something being good" ..

Say you see a course in XYZ and you want to go on it, so you have to convince your councellor to agree or else they dock you for not going to the bus driver or parquet cosmetologist courses they're offering...

and also when you are talking about people with no proper vocational training .. what about those who in fact have already a master degree but cannot find employment due to fact of being foreigner and not speaking finnish of course ...

Not my problem you have a degree in women studies, theres the mop & bucket, now make yourself useful. The Finnish woman studies master is your boss, you'll get well together.

is there the possibility to do some un-paid internship at some real company for graduates ?

Well, there were some things like that in the 2000's but that heyday is long gone...

And also what is this thing of the 500 days, what does it mean exactly ?

When you get a job, you join the union, or actually you join an unemployment fund. After 10 months working full-time if you get made redundant you are entitled to "unemployment" which is 80% of your salary for 500 days. Karenssi is 2 weeks redundant, 3 months if you quit. After the 500 days you drop onto the KELA base which is the labour market subsidy which is jack.

Moreover one point .. the so-called quarantine period (karennsi) ... relates to the "benefits" ( for those who are not interested in getting financial benefits.. ) or it refers also to the "research services" of TE mediated internships ?

Its like in the army - they send you to home to "grow up" and get rid of the "attitude".

Also is it possible to use any of the TE offices available .... I read that some offices have better personnel than others ... and how do you switch from one TE office to the other... I read something about it.

Depends on your postcode. And then theres some special offices for special groups...

[Pursuivant]

Something like .. no matter what.. if you can .. stay well clear of the työvoimatoimisto

Well the Finns call it työttömyystoimisto, because only the unemployeds go there - and nobody got a job there

So - they offer you a Finnish class - take it. After all they pay you for taking it vs. you queueing up for the university classes and paying 300. Which also is what you should do. And then - depending if your degree is something useful - I mean *can* you actually do anything - if you can find a niche job or not - or then you find something in AEL that gets you a real job.

[David Junior]

Something like .. no matter what.. if you can .. stay well clear of the työvoimatoimisto

Well the Finns call it työttömyystoimisto, because only the unemployeds go there - and nobody got a job there

So - they offer you a Finnish class - take it. After all they pay you for taking it vs. you queueing up for the university classes and paying 300. Which also is what you should do. And then - depending if your degree is something useful - I mean *can* you actually do anything - if you can find a niche job or not - or then you find something in AEL that gets you a real job.

Thanks for your input Pursuivant,

I guess taking the Finnish Class is something I will do, because the language barrier is a significant obstacle for pretty much anything in any sector. And anyway it's important to be able to better relate with finns in any contest inside and outside of work.

As for the last part, those AEL courses are taught in finnish or english and may I ask you, is it AEL another government initiative related to TE ?

I just had a fast look at their website, for each discipline, or competence area, they have some very short courses ( 1-2-3 days ) and are colour-coded yellow red and blue, there are for example some 1 day courses in 3D-cad, and there are longer courses ( 1 month) some have a price-tag attached, some others not, are these courses open to everyone ? And are they paid directly by the individual applying for them or by the TE or else, I see from the description that some of these courses actually involve also a company so are intended to extend the qualifications of people who are already working for a company.

I also found these other two education companies :

(1) TIETURI

(2) EDUPOLI

It seems the courses are mainly in finnish language.

Are these 2 training institutions also related to the TE ? Is it possible to ask the TE job-counsellors to enroll you in one of those computer training professional courses?

I have the impression that the only thing that can actually open the possibility of a real job in reasonable time, especially for foreigners who don't speak finnish, are those in the IT industry, not necessarily rocket science, but the usual Java Script, JQuery, HTML, CSS, Linux Android competencies and other computer related skills.

The other option is to try and create something of a personal company offering professional services. In that case then the main point is to find customers to whom sell the services as a consultant, which is not as obvious as it might seem.

[Pursuivant]

Most of them are in Finnish, for AEL you usually have to have at least YKI 2 to follow the instruction.
Basically the courses are geared at achieving qualifications etc. Say you've been following your dad as a plumber since age 16 and not been to any school, but want to get certified yo install heat pumps etc.

One place you might look for Finnish courses is "eira high school for adults" - they have Finnish classes and offer the whole matriculation. Say if a 16-year girl from Afghanistan who never was allowed to a school can "write" the baccalaureat in Finnish after 4 years... they must be doing something right.

The thing is the government has this illusion that there is some "need" for workets in Finland. I left as I diidn't want to pay and pay and get screwed by government. So there is the "need" - to find someone stupid enough to replace me as a taxpayer - but I was in IT and my job was already being outsourced to overseas. But at least the elite can now have cheap domestic help.

Oh, and what comes to government and waste - its "now money" and " then money" and as long as the budget looks goid now, after the next election then worry.

[Adrian42]

I have the impression that the only thing that can actually open the possibility of a real job in reasonable time, especially for foreigners who don't speak finnish, are those in the IT industry, not necessarily rocket science, but the usual Java Script, JQuery, HTML, CSS, Linux Android competencies and other computer related skills.

Finnish IT job market still hasn't recovered from the suicide of Nokia 2 years ago, so even in that area it is at the moment not easy to find a job in Finland.

And while not rocket science, you need to be at at least at a Bachelor level for a reasonable chance of finding a job in IT. If you are good you might be able to find a job without a formal degree in IT, but for actually getting a job you have to acquire the IT mindset and should really know the area you specialized in well.

So if your PhD is in rocket science and you've already written many programs for calculating your rockets you might be able to develop skills in a relevant area of IT in a reasonable time, but if your PhD was about some people that vanished from the earth 3000 years ago and you've never written a computer program in your life a relevant Bachelor degree is the only option for becoming employable in IT.

[David Junior]

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[David Junior]

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[David Junior]

Finnish IT job market still hasn't recovered from the suicide of Nokia 2 years ago, so even in that area it is at the moment not easy to find a job in Finland.

Dear Adrian,

Don't thank me ... for Nokia's suicide .. thank Stephen Elop for that, and the entire band of "wise men" who followed his supposed "leadership" of course.



By the way I do know some people, (software developers for a change) who actually took advantage of Nokia's mayhem
to move out of Nokia and switch under the umbrella of Intel which has been shopping for analysts and software engineers all the time
.. and in doing so getting even better paying conditions.

So ... never say never.

[David Junior]

For some reason...

the previous post has been apparently duplicated.

[Pursuivant]

Thats what you get for posting that smarmy git's mug.

[Adrian42]

By the way I do know some people, (software developers for a change) who actually took advantage of Nokia's mayhem
to move out of Nokia and switch under the umbrella of Intel which has been shopping for analysts and software engineers all the time
.. and in doing so getting even better paying conditions.

So ... never say never.

Intel was already hiring in Finland before Elop came to Nokia, and they could have already switched to Intel back then had they wanted to.

When you are really good in IT you will always find a good job.
I guess most of these people you know had a university degree in IT (or a related field) plus several years of relevant job experience.

But if you come from zero and think you can reach this level with a 1 month training course you are mistaken.