Finding First Employment

[srm985]

I suppose you all are plenty tired of foreigners asking about employment in Finland but here is one more thread over this topic...For several years now I have been attempting to find a way to make it to Finland permanently. Of course, like many others attempting this, I don't have a lot going for me but nonetheless it is my goal. I have just one year of schooling left and this is the time I should start looking for a permanent job to start my life outside of school. I know that my graduation date is still just under a year away (May 2014) but I thought if nothing else I could start to test the waters now in hopes of encountering something early. In all honesty, I should have job finalized by this November if I were to take a job here in the States.

Anyways, when I graduate I will have a bachelors of science in electrical engineering. Of course, I am aware that a bachelors degree does not carry much weight in Finland, yet it is what I have to offer. I do have quite much experience in the field of electrical engineering and have held two summer internships in this field. On this note, I am more than aware of the serious pay downgrade I will encounter if I am even lucky enough to find a job in Finland. Here in the States I should start around $6500USD/month but I have heard that I would end up with something less than 3000€/month in Finland. That is fine, as long as I can survive initially on whatever pay I receive. Yes, I know things are more expensive in Finland (I have lived in Finland before) and have spent about six months in total there. I also know that not speaking the language is working against me too. I have studied Finnish now about 3,5 years but of course I am still nowhere near what is needed to operate in a professional environment and my Swedish is even worse. I am fluent in English as it is my mother tongue though. If it would matter, I have studied Spanish now nine years and lived in Spain for one year so my Spanish is decent.

Like I said, I know I have a lot going against me here but I thought if nothing else I could try to find something. Earlier this year I applied for many summer internship positions in Finland including Nokia but none resulted in a job...hah, just a stack of denial letters. So, I have been trying to gain work experience in Finland but it is a bit hard to get my foot in the door as you all already know. I just wonder if somebody randomly happens to know someone looking for an electrical engineer or has some tidbit of information that is massively helpful to me.

Once again, I know this is a hard task and I know many fail at it but I must at least try. I have no plans on moving to Finland unless everything is certain. I am a very analytic person and I would never waste mine nor Finland's time if I didn't think I could be successful there and actually contribute something to the country. The last thing I want to be is a drag on society.

[Adrian42]

One thing you should be aware of is that you will face two hurdles:
1. finding a job and
2. getting a Residence Permit for this job

It is important to also keep the second one in mind - just like not every Mexican who got a job offered in the US will get a US visa, not every US citizen who got a job offered in Finland will get a Finnish Residence Permit.
If there's a sufficiently qualified job seeker available for the job, then you won't get a Residence Permit.

What about coming to Finland for doing a Masters degree after you've finished your Bachelor?
That would give you a better education, help improving your Finnish and might already give you some contacts with companies.
As a bonus, people with a degree from Finland are exempted from the "no other person available" provision when applying for a Finnish Residence Permit.
Prerequisite (besides whatever the university requires) is that you have a valid health insurance and € 6720 each year in your own bank account (to cover your costs of living in Finland).

[srm985]

I would have no objection to coming to Finland to complete a masters degree. The issue is however, I have nowhere near enough money to justify that. It would be very useful but at that point I would have to pay for schooling and housing without being able to make any money.

[rinso]

You already summed up all the problems you face.
Finding a job in your position is very, very difficult.
Better get a job in the US, get experience maybe even develop a niche specialism and then try to move.

[interleukin]

Could you find some kind of student exchange programme and come to Finland via that? There are some programmes like that even at Uni level (at least in my field & when I was studying), maybe some googling could help you with something like that. Even an exchange of a few months can give you a chance to make the right contacts and get a job offer.

A long shot maybe, but worth a try?

[Pursuivant]

I would have to pay for schooling and housing without being able to make any money.

Well get a job in the US, save half of your 6500 a month, so in a year you have enough to keep you on a student budget for a couple of years. As far as schooling fees, have you looked which masters degrees in the technical universities charge fees? http://www.aalto.fi/en/studies/student/tuition_fees/ -electrical engineering doesn't. It might change, but then you need to work 2 years to get that 8000 covered - isn't that what you pay per month in the US?

[srm985]

Well get a job in the US, save half of your 6500 a month, so in a year you have enough to keep you on a student budget for a couple of years. As far as schooling fees, have you looked which masters degrees in the technical universities charge fees? http://www.aalto.fi/en/studies/student/tuition_fees/ -electrical engineering doesn't. It might change, but then you need to work 2 years to get that 8000 covered - isn't that what you pay per month in the US?

Well, that is a really good idea actually. I hadn't thought about that aspect before but I think it is quite suiting.

As for schooling cost here in the States, it is nowhere near that high. Well, at least for me. I pay about $7000-$10.000USD a year depending on how many courses I am taking. I receive all of that in aid from the government here...all I am left to pay is housing which for me, including food is right around $5500USD a year. And I attend a real university, it's not some polytechnic school or community college. I think those prices are pretty common for a lot of universities as long as you live in the same state as the school.

Also, just on a completely random note (sorry to get off topic)...Salary taxes: all the time Finns tell me about taxes on their salaries and how they will be higher in Finland than here in the States. However, I think we are pretty even about that. Of course it changes on the amount you make and the state you live in but it has always been at least 20-30% for me. With my current internship, I make $4000/month in Texas and my taxes are about 25% but if I were to do that in my home state the taxes would be around 30%. Ok, sorry for that tangent but I just want to tell as many people as I can about that little similarity. I think a lot of people here about the taxes for the country but don't think about the fact that we have to pay taxes to the country and also to the state we live in.

I really hadn't thought of even bothering to check the prices of schooling though in Finland but that makes me quite optimistic hearing that price.

[Flossy1978]

I think we also pay taxes to the government and the municipality we live in here too. And if you belong to the church, you pay a tax to that as well. And we almost all have to pay a tax for our tv licenses too. But everything is just one number when you pay your taxes. Everything is just done for us. We don't need to worry about filing for different taxes etc. The general worker bee that is. A rich arse person owning a company etc.... Is a different story I am sure.

I know the income taxes are also different depending with municipality you live in.

Helsinki has cheaper income tax than Nurmijärvi for instance. But a lot of people who live in Nurmijärvi get this travelling bonus because most people work outside of Nurmijärvi and depending where you live, it's hard to use the public transport. No trains, just buses. So their taxable income could end up being the same as Helsinki when you deduct the travelling (I get to deduct about 3000€ a year because I go to work before there are even any buses to take me to work). In general a person in Helsinki wouldn't get this travelling bonus due to a good public transport and the cost of a Helsinki monthly ticket I believe is under the yearly limit we are responsible for (600€ last time I checked). A regional Helsinki, Vantaa, Espoo ticket I think would put you over the yearly limit and you can claim a couple of 100€ on that I think at tax time. Shift workers get this travel bonus no matter where they live. And doctors who work 24 hour shifts can claim it on the shifts they work. Things like this.

I don't think in the end America is more expensive or even on par with Finland in many ways. But in other ways much more expensive. Your healthcare prices are insane and your insurance prices are crazy too. I have American friends who tell me what they pay for stuff. The same stuff which can be found here, I have to pay so much more for. I have rabbits. My rabbit friends buy the same brand of rabbit food as I do. I pay double for the same brand and same amount. Our cost of food is soooooo much higher than America, I've also learned. You buy a house there and think the price is high. But we probably pay the same for some dingy 3 bedroom 1 bathroom flat here LOL.

But I very much like the Government's stance here..... Whether you are poor or rich, everyone deserves the same high level of education. Same goes for healthcare.... Whether you are rich or poor, you deserve the same level of care. This is why we pay the insane taxes and cost of living that we do. Ok, lets not forget the fatcats sitting in the government offices taking a large portion of our money LOL. But in general I like the Finnish idea and system. My child is getting a great education because of it. And I know if I lose my job or my child gets ill, we will be taken care of. We don't have to be afraid we'll die because we can't pay for our healthcare or be chucked out onto the street cause I lose my job. I actually can't be thrown out of my home by law if I lost my job and couldn't pay the rent. It's against the law in the housing I live in.

There's good and bad, high costs and low costs in all countries everywhere. Finland hides so much of it's costs, where as in America, Australia, etc the costs are often up front. Sneaky buggers, ha? LOL

Good luck on your journey to getting here. I hope you get what you want and can come.

[srm985]

That is all quite interesting information. I am happy to hear about some of the finer details of expenses there in Finland. Hah, I do realize that most things are more expensive there in Finland, I was fortunate (or perhaps unfortunate) enough to experience those prices first-hand. And I really do like the mentality of the Finnish government. I wouldn't mind giving them quite a large portion of my salary to support the stance that they have. Like you said, things are quite expensive in comparison to some other countries but if one is happy with the results of these high taxes then there is no need to worry.

On the note of healthcare though...If you choose to see a private doctor, Kela does not cover that, right? You are to pay if seeing a private doctor? Or does Kela cover some cost of that? If you choose to see private doctors, are there some sort of "insurance plans" for this and if so, would you happen to have any idea what the annual cost is? Haha jep, healthcare is quite expensive here but for most jobs the cost of healthcare is usually covered when you are negotiating for a job. Of course, some "lower" jobs may not provide health insurance or may ask the employee to pay a portion of it but any decent jobs (as in jobs you would obtain with a college/university degree) are almost always going to cover the cost of your health insurance. This coverage is not deducted from your pay either, it is an additional item provided. Of course, depending on the insurance plan the company provides, you may still have to pay quite much on your own. It is quite common to have some yearly limit...where you must spend up to let's say, $1000 in a year and then after that, insurance will cover all the expenses. Or if you see a doctor for something you may have to pay like $10 for the visit. Or some surgery, maybe 5-10% of the cost. So, things can add up quickly if you are having a lot of problems with your health but in general it can be quite affordable. Although, this is all based on your job. Like you said, in Finland, all are taken care of by the government no matter how little money they have. As you probably already know, here if you have little money it is almost impossible to afford health insurance. The thing is, those people that don't have health insurance can still go to the hospital and be treated and usually they will not have to ever pay for the bills either. We have quite many issues from this though because a large number of people do this and I suppose the government doesn't really have money allotted for this.

The whole insurance situation in the States is pretty awkward right now. Quite many people are opposed to the government forcing them to pay for insurance for others (via higher taxes) and I suppose I could see their point. Many people are just barely making it on their own, and working quite hard to do so and to pay for their health insurance and now the government is telling them that they should pay higher taxes in order that the government can provide healthcare to those who don't have it. The thing is, the government gives out too much free money as it is. Ok, it's not so much but it's enough that many people choose not to find a job and just to live off of what the government is giving them. I know, some people have challenges or are unemployed for a few months if they have lost a job and are looking for a new one, but to live off of the money the government is giving you for all of your life, is just awful. Furthermore, the more children you have, the more money you receive...this just means that those people just using the government's money just have more children so that they can receive more money...further perpetuating the cycle. These are the people that I would not like my taxes to go towards. I am fine with the government asking a bit more from me to help those in need, but many people are not in need here in the States but are simply lazy. I know, it will always be this way and there is nothing that can change it. For example, if you lose your job here i the States, it's something like you will receive 90% of your pay for like 18 months or some very long time. So, many people just take advantage of this and don't look for a job right away. I guess the government just don't have a strong handle on all of these issues yet here in the States.

[Adrian42]

On the note of healthcare though...If you choose to see a private doctor, Kela does not cover that, right? You are to pay if seeing a private doctor? Or does Kela cover some cost of that? If you choose to see private doctors, are there some sort of "insurance plans" for this and if so, would you happen to have any idea what the annual cost is? Haha jep, healthcare is quite expensive here but for most jobs the cost of healthcare is usually covered when you are negotiating for a job.

When you live and work in Finland, you are usually covered by Kela in the public sector and have some coverage at a private healthcare provider through your employer (for occupational healthcare, not for bigger expenses like operations).

As you probably already know, here if you have little money it is almost impossible to afford health insurance. The thing is, those people that don't have health insurance can still go to the hospital and be treated and usually they will not have to ever pay for the bills either. We have quite many issues from this though because a large number of people do this and I suppose the government doesn't really have money allotted for this.

The main problem in the US are actually the ridiculously high profits hospitals and doctors and many other players in the health care sector make.

In the US, twice as much (sic) is spent per capita on healthcare than in Finland.
And when you start looking at why twice as much money results in worse healthcare than in Finland, you will come nearer to the actual problems.

And no, the problem are definitely not poor people not being able to pay their bills - anyone telling you so is just attempting to distract you from the places where the money is actually wasted.

The whole insurance situation in the States is pretty awkward right now. Quite many people are opposed to the government forcing them to pay for insurance for others (via higher taxes) and I suppose I could see their point. Many people are just barely making it on their own, and working quite hard to do so and to pay for their health insurance and now the government is telling them that they should pay higher taxes in order that the government can provide healthcare to those who don't have it.

Some people have succeeded in distracting you from the actual problems.

Were you aware that the US government alone is already spending more money per capita on healthcare than what is spent in Finland per capita altogether (public and private sector combined)?
The US could completely abolish all private health care insurances and would still have more money available per capita than Finland...

[Flossy1978]

Aren't American doctors the highest paid doctors in the world? Granted they deserve a higher than normal salary because well, a doctor is kind of one of the most important people to have around. But don't they make obscene amounts of money there? That's where the problem lies. Here in Finland they don't make so much money. I knew a doctor who worked for the Government. He made 4500€ a month in salary. He'd do one 24 hour shift a month to get more money. Said he could do more 24 hour shifts if he wanted, but it takes a real toll on your health. He said he ended up with nearly a 1000€ for the one shift. Now he's a specialist, his income rose, but not by a huge amount.

He said the doctors who work for the private companies don't get as good salaries as the government doctors. I would have thought it's the other way round. But who knows.

If you go to a private doctor KELA will pay some of it. A small portion.

The company I work for uses a private medical company for it's employees. We even have one of their medical centres in our building. But over the last few years my employer has cut back on so much they use to pay for us, like specialists etc. Some specialists are still free for us if it affects our work and some other reasons.

No company will pay for private surgery. If you need care for cancer or whatnot, you go public. If you need surgery your file will be sent to the public system for that. There are very few private hospitals here. And as my doctor friend said, they aren't even equiped to handle most matters and seem to always end up calling for ambulances to take the patient to the public hospital.

Not all companies offer private health cover. You should know that.