Student jobs

[AldenG]

... but I am confident someone will come up pretty soon to shovel some more negativity as usual.

Q.E.D.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum

But at least your irony is impeccable.

[AldenG]

The truth is that platitudes on either the optimistic or pessimistic side are equally valuable, which is to say: not very.

As Adrian points out, the only thing of real value here would be specific pointers.

Optimists and pessimists each tend to regard the other's point of view as terribly self-defeating. However, what game theory and research into real-world cases tell us is that if the goal is to achieve actual results, optimism and pessimism both have advantages and disadvantages compared to each other. For different situations, and (as an independent variable) for different people, one will often outperform the other. But contrary to conventional wisdom and even more contrary to the Polyanna worldview, there is no universal intrinsic advantage to optimism. About half the time a pessimistic strategy will outperform an optimistic strategy. There are strategies that work better for different situations and strategies that work better for different personalities. There is no universal "best orientation."

The optimist has a clear advantage in happiness and a possible advantage in life expectancy, but not in achievement of goals.

(However, regarding happiness, optimism-vs-pessimism is only one variable. For instance, flexibility-vs-rigidity is a more important predictor.)

Experience and age tend to foster a balanced combination of outlooks and strategies. As with most dimensions of personality, someone who can only function at one end of any duality, including the optimism-pessimism duality, tends to be at the greatest disadvantage. Life and nature discourage imbalances.

[Adrian42]

The truth is that platitudes on either the optimistic or pessimistic side are equally valuable, which is to say: not very.

As Adrian points out, the only thing of concrete value here would be specific pointers.

There is also much value in giving people a realistic assessment of their situation before they arrive in Finland.

Unfortunately, the realistic chances for someone who does not speak Finnish fluently to find a job in Finland are usually quite low. And if the person actually manages to find a job, then might be in the region of 10-15 euros per hour as David Junior wrote is on the upper end of what student jobs pay and not necessarily realistic.

Someone coming to Finland with the assumption that he will find a student job in Finland might have to abort his studies after a year and go back home with no degree and no money left.

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=78071&start=15#p502700 has some additional explanations.

I don't like to be negative and I am reviewing my opinions based on what others say. But both from people I know personally and from what other foreigners write in this forum they rarely say that finding a job in Finland was easy for them (and I am discounting David Junior's optimism unless he has finally managed to find a job for himself).

[AldenG]

There is also much value in giving people a realistic assessment of their situation before they arrive in Finland.

Indeed one would think that if there were 20,000 available summer jobs and 60,000 potential applicants competing for them, and the jobs were assigned with local fluency as the first or second selection criterion, those would be useful bits of information. They would enable applicants to target their efforts and perhaps hone their self-presentation.

For it would be a hard fact that 20,000 (more or less) would get a job.
And also a hard fact that 40,000 (more or less) would not.
(Of course I don't know the actual numbers in this case -- this is for illustration.)

Maybe the optimist is the one who got one of those jobs last summer and the pessimist is the one who didn't. But I think we'd find that's often not the case, because the balance of optimism and pessimism is influenced a lot by genetics as well as experience. Some strong optimists refuse to acknowledge hard realities because they're emotionally unequipped to cope with them. And much of that inability can come from the genetic side. But of course that's only one possible factor of a cluster of factors fostering optimism and so it doesn't apply to all optimists across the board.

When I hear people lashing out against "pessimistic" assessments of the jobs market in Finland, I hear partly a desire to consider that the reality may be otherwise but also partly a fear of being unable to succeed if the reality is indeed as described and a need to persuade themselves that the odds are not against them. Some optimists simply shut down if they recognize too much adversity (which can be surprisingly little adversity). Maintaining denial can be the necessary key to functioning for them.

It works both directions of course. Some reactions against pessimism and against optimism alike are fear-based. Some are dominance-based. Some are reality-based. These things and others tend to combine in all of our opinions.

It usually appears to me that the more harshly and simplistically such an opinion is expressed, the more it rests on an emotional foundation and the less amenable it will be to reasoning. (Thus the more wasted any attempt at reasoning will be.) A person who can't concede you might be right in small or large part, whether you're the optimist or the pessimist, may simply have no choice in the matter. They may be at the edge-limit of their repertoire. So in the end I try to let them do what they need to get by, avoid pushing them beyond what they can cope with.

[Adrian42]

Maybe the optimist is the one who got one of those jobs last summer and the pessimist is the one who didn't. But I think we'd find that's often not the case, because the balance of optimism and pessimism is influenced a lot by genetics as well as experience. Some strong optimists refuse to acknowledge hard realities because they're emotionally unequipped to cope with them. And much of that inability can come from the genetic side. But of course that's only one possible factor of a cluster of factors fostering optimism and so it doesn't apply to all optimists across the board.

This optimism/pessimism split you describe are more the extremes, not what the majority of people are.

I actually tend more to be an optimist, and I've succeeded so far more than once with finding a job in Finland even though I am not speaking Finnish fluently.
But I also see that many other people struggle much with finding a job in Finland, and that not speaking Finnish fluently is a huge obstacle for them in finding a job (no matter whether they have no education or a PhD).

It usually appears to me that the more harshly and simplistically such an opinion is expressed, the more it rests on an emotional foundation and the less amenable it will be to reasoning.

That's not necessarily true, factors you should also keep in mind:
- systematic problem in the assumptions of the people the reply is for
- repetition

A systematic problem we have in this forum is that the average person who wants to find a job in Finland is too optimistic about his chances.
Someone asking Where can I find a job? is already basing his question on the (often incorrect) assumption that he can find any job at all.
Foreigners who are too pessimistic (or even realistic with the current job market) about their job opportunities in Finland usually won't consider moving to Finland in the first place.
Attempting to bring people who are systematically too optimistic to a realistic view makes everyone look like a pessimist - even when he isn't.

And since we have dozens of foreigners coming to this forum each month asking where they can find a job, the repetition of the same answers to the same questions results in more harsh and simplistic answers.

[rinso]

A systematic problem we have in this forum is that the average person who wants to find a job in Finland is too optimistic about his chances.
Someone asking Where can I find a job? is already basing his question on the (often incorrect) assumption that he can find any job at all.
Foreigners who are too pessimistic (or even realistic with the current job market) about their job opportunities in Finland usually won't consider moving to Finland in the first place.
Attempting to bring people who are systematically too optimistic to a realistic view makes everyone look like a pessimist - even when he isn't.

The job situation in Finland is better than in most Mediterranean countries. So people from those countries believe they have a better chance here than at home.
But being a non-lingo foreigner changes the situation completely. It is a negative message but it gives people the chance to access the real situation better. How they deal with that situation depends whether they are an optimist or a pessimist.

[cors187]

is it really hard to find one? and how much does a student job usually pay?

you try negotiate 11.50/hr
i think 10.50 is ok and many student will come to Uusimaa(helsinki greater area) on a promise of 10.50