Hi all,
So, here's the background:
We have very active children, both of them boys. And by "most Finnish standards" (apparently), they are active, I mean they are always playing, jumping, falling, screaming and sometimes in the process they often manage a nick or two by themselves, e.g. when the two of them rode their cycles and tricycle into each other. The elder one got bruises on his knees, and elbows - this, despite wearing pads, and the younger one got his legs scratched from the wheels.
Yesterday, at a family-friend's place, the elder one was playing with their kid, and just before returning back, we noticed that he had a small gash, about 2 cms on the right side of his head, and a small swelling. He never told anybody how he got it. Our friend's (the husband) noticed it, but my son just mumbled something about a swing or something.
Well, we were not sure whether the wound was deep or not, and we did not like the idea of a 5 hour wait at Peijas so, we took him to Terveystalo late evening. The doctor instead of checking his head was more interested in checking his body for bruises, and then his legs and backside. Ok, I am perhaps no Einstein, but was she suspecting child-abuse? BUT Based on what? She was looking for signs of abuse, trying to query us and him to investigate what really happened. And we gave them the honest answer, "we don't really know, but it happened sometime in the afternoon/evening when he was playing with another child, at our friend's place". And he said, "I don't know, and I don't remember" - which is 100% true. The kids were watching a video there, and then playing, eating! It was only when he was being tucked into the child seat that my wife noticed the gash, and soon after we came home, we took a closer look, removed the hair, and decided to take a visit to the doctor.
Question: What made the doctor still suspect any sort of child-abuse where there is none? To clarify: We have none, and neither of us is from a background where we accept any physical punishments, and we are both loving towards our children, take full care of them, and have no problems at home. In fact, my wife thought we could all go together, so yes, we were there as a family, kids were their normal selves, were constantly playing and speaking, and running around. In fact, we were the ones to take him, just because we wanted to make sure it was not serious. He did not even know it!
Question: Is it possible that I could ask them for a written brief to check if they still suspected something that is not there, and gone behind our backs and made it a bigger-issue? From their demeanor, I am not sure they were convinced, especially since my 5-year old also said, he has no idea.
Question: Are they likely to do that? Go behind our backs and make it an issue?
Why am I worried about this? I've heard too many things about kids being taken into custody, right-off without any warnings etc. I don't think that fair.
Final question: And what are we supposed to do with our children? Keep them in a small room with walls made of soft sponge? They are boys for goodness sake!
Thanks for any help. Other experiences would be greatly appreciated.
Doctor's behaviour, confusing, child-welfare
Re: Doctor's behaviour, confusing, child-welfare
Doctors/nurses/etc have to check any possibility of abuse and if they think its real they have to report. Difference between them and "normal people" is that its mandatory to them to check and if needed, report.
1st question : they are doing their job. There is always first time. They have to check.
2nd question : Sure you can ask any paperwork regarding your kid. Just ask "all info about kid in hospital system"
3rd question : Likely? no, possible? yes. In definition they are not only allowed but by law they have to report any case where there is reasonable doubt to child protection and if they were you would see child protection sooner than you get out of hospital. So if you havent seen them then they probably didnt report anything. Case itself of course stays in records. Do you really think they would let you out with kid if they suspect abuse?
4th question. Fair to you or child? Its not ment to be fair to you but protect a child. You may think that beating a kid is valid, fair and good way to raise him but finnish law doesnt and thats one of main reasons to take children away. And main reason to conflict between social workers and parents. I dont assume you do that but stories "yhyy, i just beat my kids and now finns unfairly took them away" emerge from that difference.
5th question. Be good parent, accidents happen and doctors/nurses etc have to make sure those are really accidents.
1st question : they are doing their job. There is always first time. They have to check.
2nd question : Sure you can ask any paperwork regarding your kid. Just ask "all info about kid in hospital system"
3rd question : Likely? no, possible? yes. In definition they are not only allowed but by law they have to report any case where there is reasonable doubt to child protection and if they were you would see child protection sooner than you get out of hospital. So if you havent seen them then they probably didnt report anything. Case itself of course stays in records. Do you really think they would let you out with kid if they suspect abuse?
4th question. Fair to you or child? Its not ment to be fair to you but protect a child. You may think that beating a kid is valid, fair and good way to raise him but finnish law doesnt and thats one of main reasons to take children away. And main reason to conflict between social workers and parents. I dont assume you do that but stories "yhyy, i just beat my kids and now finns unfairly took them away" emerge from that difference.
5th question. Be good parent, accidents happen and doctors/nurses etc have to make sure those are really accidents.
Caesare weold Graecum, ond Caelic Finnum
Re: Doctor's behaviour, confusing, child-welfare
Hi Onkko!
Thanks, fair enough we see your point, the system is there to protect the child, and we have absolutely no problems with that.
However, can we expect this every time we take our kids to the hospital? Weird! That almost sounds to us that we would have our persons checked, every time we leave the shop, to make sure, one of us have not been shoplifting!
Question: Regarding asking for the lääkärikertomus (or the briefing), I suppose they would be bound to record any intention or suspicion in there?
And if, as you say, they would not have let us out if they suspected something, and if the child welfare services would have been there, then I should perhaps relax? It is just that we have heard too many stories of children being picked up without warning. So, expect this every time? Kids do fall sick, and children do get hurt in the course of growing up. But IIRC, Bepanthene advertisement was just that.
So, to quote, the problem usually stems from "a conflict between social workers and parents" and not any real danger to the child? Of course, this could even be translated as being "a conflict between doctor and parents"? I.e. we really did not have any answers how/when/why this happened, and even the location is approximate. And of course, our son said he doesn't remember either! Gosh!
And no, to answer your statement, no, we have never, and do not believe in any form of physical punishment. I am very thankful, both our kids, active as they are, are extremely easy to discuss with. That being said, it is really hard for me to even imagine asking them to cover themselves in bubble-wrap, and tiptoe around, lest they fall and injure themselves.
Thanks, fair enough we see your point, the system is there to protect the child, and we have absolutely no problems with that.
However, can we expect this every time we take our kids to the hospital? Weird! That almost sounds to us that we would have our persons checked, every time we leave the shop, to make sure, one of us have not been shoplifting!
Question: Regarding asking for the lääkärikertomus (or the briefing), I suppose they would be bound to record any intention or suspicion in there?
And if, as you say, they would not have let us out if they suspected something, and if the child welfare services would have been there, then I should perhaps relax? It is just that we have heard too many stories of children being picked up without warning. So, expect this every time? Kids do fall sick, and children do get hurt in the course of growing up. But IIRC, Bepanthene advertisement was just that.
So, to quote, the problem usually stems from "a conflict between social workers and parents" and not any real danger to the child? Of course, this could even be translated as being "a conflict between doctor and parents"? I.e. we really did not have any answers how/when/why this happened, and even the location is approximate. And of course, our son said he doesn't remember either! Gosh!
And no, to answer your statement, no, we have never, and do not believe in any form of physical punishment. I am very thankful, both our kids, active as they are, are extremely easy to discuss with. That being said, it is really hard for me to even imagine asking them to cover themselves in bubble-wrap, and tiptoe around, lest they fall and injure themselves.
Re: Doctor's behaviour, confusing, child-welfare
If they are telling something forward then there is paper trail but of course you cant probe on ones mind.
Except what? full check if kid is fine? i would say i hope so. And i assure that they do check finnish kids with finnish parents same way.
Dont take checks as offend, those arent aimed against you but to help kid if needed, if not needed then thats great but they have to check. Taking your kid away is so expensive that they do think twice and as recent news tell maybe too much.
Except what? full check if kid is fine? i would say i hope so. And i assure that they do check finnish kids with finnish parents same way.
Dont take checks as offend, those arent aimed against you but to help kid if needed, if not needed then thats great but they have to check. Taking your kid away is so expensive that they do think twice and as recent news tell maybe too much.
Caesare weold Graecum, ond Caelic Finnum
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Flossy1978
- Posts: 1395
- Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:38 pm
Re: Doctor's behaviour, confusing, child-welfare
Forget about it.
If there was an issue with abuse you wouldn't have been allowed to have left the doctor's place.
And no..... Kids aren't just 'taken' here. Unlike other countries, Finland tries very hard to keep families together and children can't just be taken. There is a long process full of paperwork and a lot of work for such a thing to happen. From what I know and have learned. They spend an incredible amount of money on the welfare of children here. It's shown in school, in daycares etc.... Everywhere.
My own child is covered in bruises from head to feet.... He spends most the day outside doing god knows what with his other little friends. He never needs to go to the doctor, but we've had health checkups as he's been growing and now some for school and they have never acted like I would be abusing my son. Right now both his legs are covered in bruises. I worry more about what his Stepmother would say than any officials LOL.
Sorry, I think you're over reacting a bit. The doctor was just doing her job. You were let go.... And you went to a private doctor. Private doctor notes are not shared with the public system / government, unless for instance you get sent for surgery etc. So forget it. It's fine.
If there was an issue with abuse you wouldn't have been allowed to have left the doctor's place.
And no..... Kids aren't just 'taken' here. Unlike other countries, Finland tries very hard to keep families together and children can't just be taken. There is a long process full of paperwork and a lot of work for such a thing to happen. From what I know and have learned. They spend an incredible amount of money on the welfare of children here. It's shown in school, in daycares etc.... Everywhere.
My own child is covered in bruises from head to feet.... He spends most the day outside doing god knows what with his other little friends. He never needs to go to the doctor, but we've had health checkups as he's been growing and now some for school and they have never acted like I would be abusing my son. Right now both his legs are covered in bruises. I worry more about what his Stepmother would say than any officials LOL.
Sorry, I think you're over reacting a bit. The doctor was just doing her job. You were let go.... And you went to a private doctor. Private doctor notes are not shared with the public system / government, unless for instance you get sent for surgery etc. So forget it. It's fine.
Re: Doctor's behaviour, confusing, child-welfare
I sympathise with you. Just like Flossy's, my youngest is constantly full of cuts & bruises due to him being clumsy and wanting to play with slightly older kids so doing things slightly above what he is capable of.
I'd not worry so much as doctors must see plenty of kids who are like this and can tell the difference between this and abuse.
I'd be quite happy that the doctor at least showed enough concern to check quickly that there was nothing untoward (after all children are in contact with lots of people, not just the parents). Also another interpretation is that if your boy couldn't remember how he got the cut, it would be sensible to check whether he had been hurt elsewhere at the same time.
Agree as a non Finn, that the Finnish manner can feel more accusatory, which coupled with your concern may have exagerrated your feeling that the doc was implying more than she really was.
I'd not worry so much as doctors must see plenty of kids who are like this and can tell the difference between this and abuse.
I'd be quite happy that the doctor at least showed enough concern to check quickly that there was nothing untoward (after all children are in contact with lots of people, not just the parents). Also another interpretation is that if your boy couldn't remember how he got the cut, it would be sensible to check whether he had been hurt elsewhere at the same time.
Agree as a non Finn, that the Finnish manner can feel more accusatory, which coupled with your concern may have exagerrated your feeling that the doc was implying more than she really was.