Rogue Builders

[jwoods]

Hi!

Has anyone had any experience with rogue builders? I am in the middle of a dispute and wondering how to proceed.

I don't want to bore anyone with all the details, but to summarise:

• I posted a help-needed advert at kodinremontit.fi
• 1m² closet renovation (plaster-boarding the walls, moving a door frame, sticking up an electric light etc).
• Accepted estimated cost: €850-€1400 (was told I could save money if I did some of the initial demolition, which I did).
• Estimate was based on a few days work at €37 ex VAT / hour + actual materials used.

I received 4 invoices for the work, each a few days apart:

• Materials: €315.90.
• Work hours: €1835.20
• Electrician: €197.90
• More materials: €215.49
• Final price: €2564.49

Everyone who I have consulted (other home-owners, other professional builders in Finland) have told me the job should have cost absolutely no more than €1000. And that I am being ripped off.

I studied the second materials bill carefully and found many items they were fraudulently trying to charge me for, e.g. 1000-packs of nails and screws, and pipes and such used only in plumbing renovation jobs. Initially they said it was all correct, then eventually they agreed it was a 'mistake'. Same with the hours, said there was a few tiny mistakes and I should have been charged for 36 hours, not 40.

But still, I am left with a bill for €2300+ with the only explanation being: that's how long it took. There were no surprise extraneous circumstances like asbestos removal etc. Just as simple a job as mentioned above.

A lot of these hours still just don't add up. They overlapped with times when I would have been in the property, but I didn't see them once. The company's response was: the workers worked really hard and didn't take a single break nor lunch-hour.

I am also being charged double hours: I only agreed I'd pay the company €37/hour, but they said they sent two workers so they could charge me per person, which I didn't agree to nor have any knowledge about.

I am also being charged for 6 hours before the work had even begun, for them to collect the materials needed for the job as well as a 19-hour Friday which included a trip to the dump apparently...

I think that was all, other than arriving 2 weeks later than the agreed start...

I have so far paid them a total of €1954.11 but am withholding €367.04 (8 hours). I've even offered that I'll pay for 5 more hours if that will put an end to the matter, but I think the next step will be debt-collectors

Any advice or links to organisations who can help me would be appreciated!

Cheers,

Joe

[kharnynb]

contact the ombudsman for consumer services.
http://www.kuluttajavirasto.fi/en-GB/consumer_advice/

[kharnynb]

http://www.kuluttajavirasto.fi/en-GB/ho ... d-payment/

more info

[jwoods]

Oh wow!

A cost estimate is an estimate that may be exceeded by no more than 15%, and only when doing so is justifiable.

Am I actually going to win a dispute for the first time in my life?

[kharnynb]

Price disputes require proof

If no prior agreement exists regarding the price, the consumer must generally pay the price charged by the contractor, assuming the price is not unreasonable and the invoice is itemised.

Hourly rates must be based on actual working hours and necessary travel hours
Cost estimates must generally be stuck to. If the final price is lower than the cost estimate, the contractor is not entitled to charge according to the original price estimate. The price estimate may only be exceeded by 15% and justifiable grounds must be given for this
A fixed price , i.e. a piecework rate may not be exceeded at all. Nor does the contractor have to lower the price even if the work turns out to be cheaper than expected
Maximum price is the upper limit for the price. It may not be exceeded even if the actual costs of the work are greater than expected. The price may, however, be lowered according to the amount of work performed or materials used

In the event of a dispute, the burden of proof regarding the agreed price lies with the contractor. At least in renovation contracts worth EUR 10,000 or more, the contractor should ensure that the renovation agreement is prepared in writing.

If you disagree with a contractor regarding an invoice, you have the right to withhold payment of the excess portion invoiced. In this case, you must always submit a written request, along with relevant justification, to the contractor to have the price adjusted.
If the contractor does not accept the adjustment and insists on sticking to the original invoice, you should contact a consumer advisor immediately. The consumer advisor may assess whether there is reason to continue withholding payment and dispute the matter.

[kharnynb]

So basically, it depends on what proof you have of the initial agreement, and what exactly they did.

[gfunho]

I find difficult to swallow that (in many cases) in Finland, working badly usually comes with a benefit for the bad worker if he charges per hour.

Some months ago I had some guy trying to install an outside lamp. He was very bad and took several hours (maybe 6) to do something that he estimated could do in 2 (and I have no doubt that most of the professionals could have done it in 2). He ended up charging for the 6 hours, so win-win situation for him.

Same with my car. Something got broken and the mechanic was unable to find what was wrong. Took many hours to find the mistake and charged me by the hour of "investigation". Had he been a competent mechanic that could know where the problem was in, let's say, one hour, I would have got a bill 300€ cheaper and the car back one week sooner.

Charging by the hour in a job that depends on skill makes less-skilled workers get actually MORE money....

[network_engineer]

Welcome!

Yes, faced this less than once, i.e. kinda mentioned that I would file a case against them and they backed off!

Here's what I do:

1. Let's write what will be done,
2. How it will be done, and,
3. When it will be done (when do you start, and how I will penalise unreasonable delays)
4. The end-result.

Now, "Give me the whole and complete price", in other words, give me the bill before-hand, and I will pay when 1,2,3 and 4 are done. Don't like it, I find another company, you find another customer!

Helps!

[rinso]

Don't like it, I find another company, you find another customer!

Good principle but it doesn't always work that way.
We had to build an extension but due to some sponsorship issues we needed a final All-in price (in writing) beforehand. Only one company was willing to do that so we had no choice.
Off course there were unexpected costs so he had to cut corners to stay within budget.
In the end we refused to make the last payment (10%) due to low quality of some items. (And he did accept it)

[mrjimsfc]

I have often taken advantage of the situation often encountered by consumers getting ripped of by poor workers. I will give a "hard" bid on a project that I feel I can complete in a certain number of hours. I also provide a "time and materials" option for the project. The bid is always 15% to 20% higher than what I feel the job can be accomplished for in time and materials. The customer almost always takes the bid and I get a nice bonus. The job is always done immaculately of course and I get a lot of return business and referenced calls. I have noticed recently that I could probably increase my bid to 50% over time and materials and still provide a less expensive and better service than many other businesses out there. Spend some effort in choosing your contractor and GET REFERENCES.

[network_engineer]

I will give a "hard" bid on a project that I feel I can complete in a certain number of hours. I also provide a "time and materials" option for the project. The bid is always 15% to 20% higher than what I feel the job can be accomplished for in time and materials.

Facebook style!

Knowing the business sense world-over, keeping prices reasonable with leveled quality ensures continuing business.

[jwoods]

I don't get why kuluttajavirasto.fi has so much information in English yet they say if you want to actually use their services (phone or visit their offices) it is strictly in Finnish or Swedish.

I'm not demanding they serve me in English of course, but why have they gone to so much trouble to translate all of their webpages into English?

They tell you in detail what your rights are, then put up barriers from actually exercising your rights.

I don't want to burden a Finnish-speaking friend with trips to offices in the middle of nowhere during office hours and kuluttajavirasto.fi's advice is to hire an interpreter at my own expense.

I just gave up and just paid the builders the ~€500 they were overcharging me...

Disappointing.

[cors187]

I don't want to bore anyone with all the details, but to summarize:


1m² closet renovation (plaster-boarding the walls, moving a door frame, sticking up an electric light etc).

Sounds 1500 plus.

but they said they sent two workers so they could charge me per person.

Its normal.

Also remember you always pay for pickup and transport times for project materials, its normal for a hr/rate tarjous.

[jwoods]

You're right, it certainly seems like a normal practice here. When I queried their hours, they were saying that it was all normal and that I'd apparently agreed to unlimited hourly billing.

When I direct the firm to that Consumer Ombudsman website which says they have to stick to agreed estimates, they even disputed that website saying "it's not the law".

Well, it was the first time I've hired people, and I sure as hell won't make the same mistake the next time. Next time = Estonians + contract with detailed written estimates

Thankfully it was only hundreds of Euros in dispute, not thousands.

[cors187]

You're right, it certainly seems like a normal practice here. When I queried their hours, they were saying that it was all normal and that I'd apparently agreed to unlimited hourly billing.
When I direct the firm to that Consumer Ombudsman website which says they have to stick to agreed estimates, they even disputed that website saying "it's not the law".

You should have pursued them, they would have folded.
These type of companies put 2nd rate tradesmen on your job that fumble the efficiency, costing you money, I know because ive done it too(not by choice).
Sometimes jobs get over looked and estimated as easy , when infact its full custom on every detail.Which would require a 1st rate tradey to keep things in check.

The truth always comes out, un supervised middle tier tradeys working at 50% efficiency.

Next time = Estonians + contract with detailed written estimates

Estonian is not any better than un supervised middle tier tradeys working at 50% efficiency.
Its just you dont pay premium.