UK Drivers Licence conversion

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Rosamunda
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UK Drivers Licence conversion

Post by Rosamunda » Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:27 pm

Has anyone had their UK Drivers Licence refused by the police when they went to swap it for a FInnish one?
I have been told that my licence cannot be accepted because (a) it is a provisional one (is NOT - it has full licence written on the top of the page :? )
and (b) it doesn't specifiy which categories I can drive (it says A and E... and my understanding is that A includes ALL vehicules except motorbikes etc)

So maybe it is just too cryptic for them. OR maybe they thought it looked fishy (I have no stamps, minus points, bans etc after 37 years on the road) or maybe it is just too.... old (1976).

They said I had to contact "somewhere" to get a certificate stating that I can drive and which categories...

But they gave it back so I'm still driving. :D

Any suggestions? Is this a freak one-off someone having a bad day or have I really been driving for more than 30 years with the wrong piece of paper.

(BTW I just thought a Finnish one would be useful because when I rent cars it's always a hassle that there is no photo/wrong address on the UK one)



UK Drivers Licence conversion

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riku2
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Re: UK Drivers Licence conversion

Post by riku2 » Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:39 pm

Rosamunda wrote:Has anyone had their UK Drivers Licence refused by the police ...maybe it is just too.... old (1976)
So if it's 1976 then it's the paper only one without a photo? The modern UK photocard licences are only valid 10 years. Perhaps it's the lack of photo that is the trouble. In which case get a photocard licence issued in the UK and then swap it.

How could category A include "all" vehicles? that would extend to buses, trucks under 7.5t, trucks over 7.5t, trucks with trailers. I doubt you have a licence for "all" vehicles.

I'm from the UK and have the UK photocard licence and matching paper "counterpart" licence. The counterpart sounds like yours with category A and GH listed But my photocard lists different categories B, BE, C1,C1E,D1,D1E and each of them has a small icon giving some clue to what the category is (car, car+trailer, minibus etc). The counterpart does not tell what A and GH are and they don't match what is on the photo card. Even the text on the back of the counterpart licence which says "minimum ages for driving" doesn't show categories A and GH but instead ones like B, BE, C1 as on the photocard licence so they have done something bizarre with the categories on the front of the paper counterpart licence.

edited after looking up the info on DVLA: the paper counterpart does not actually show the categories allowed to drive (that is only on the photocard licence). The paper counterpart shows provisional categories. So i'm allowed to drive a car (B on photocard) and have provisional entitlement for A motorbike - only shown on the paper licence).

Rosamunda
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Re: UK Drivers Licence conversion

Post by Rosamunda » Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:54 pm

Yes, it's the old pink paper one.
I found this conversion table on DLVC https://www.gov.uk/old-driving-licence-categories
If you scroll down a bit you can see the 1976 codes and the line: A = B,C,E, F, K,L,N (with restrictions)

I guess I should've anticipated this problem and printed those gov.co.uk pages - but I'm not sure it would've helped since they're not crystal clear. And apparently the lady in charge was not for turning this morning.

Getting a plastic card licence from the UK means sending off a photo AND passport and apparently you have to be RESIDENT in the K and give proof of address for the last three years :?

Hmmm...

But everywhere on DLVC/gov.co.uk it says that you can drive in the EEA with a GB licence but you can get a local one "if you want to". I don't think I'm illegal.... yet.

My SO suggested contacting the Consulate/Embassy to get a letter confirming the validity of my licence but I doubt very much that they would do that.
Last edited by Rosamunda on Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Pursuivant
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Re: UK Drivers Licence conversion

Post by Pursuivant » Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:59 pm

Yeah, you'd need to get that humongous piece of paper that is pre-EU (for Finland at least) to be converted to an EU-compatible one first. I think you also need to carry an "international" with that or the traffic cops will be giving you grief on the road.
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Rosamunda
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Re: UK Drivers Licence conversion

Post by Rosamunda » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:05 pm

The lady at the Police Station said they could hassle me... but there is ABSOLUTELY nothing on the DLVC website that says you can't drive in EEA with a pink paper. In fact they specifically say that you can. You only have to apply for the plastic card "if you want to". Paper licences were around well after the UK joined the EU. And anyway, my licence dates from 1976 = POST-EU (the UK joined the Common Market in 1973)

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aguinness
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Re: UK Drivers Licence conversion

Post by aguinness » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:33 pm

If it helps any, I know " someone" who swapped an Irish provisional licence for a Finnish full licence till they are 70 years old, that was about 15 years ago. No problems, no questions ( not enough) asked.
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Rosamunda
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Re: UK Drivers Licence conversion

Post by Rosamunda » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:19 am

Wow.

But no, it doesn't help much!!! :D
The woman who was dealing with me had no idea what to do and it was her supervisor who made the decision but she seemed to be very busy doing other stuff and I don't think she even tried to read it and definitely didn't try to look it up on the internet. I think I managed to convince them that it is a FULL licence and not a provisional one, but they didn't understand the codes (A,E...) If I had turned up during the supervisor's lunch hour, I'm not sure what would've happened. They obviously haven't seen many pink paper licences from the UK before.

So, I kind of stuck with it until I'm 70. Not sure what I'll do then though.

DMC
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Re: UK Drivers Licence conversion

Post by DMC » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:06 am

Keeping your UK paper licence until you are 70, when it expires, seems to be the easiest option ... or is it? I looked into this a few years ago but seem to have lost my notes so I have just been re-checking my facts, only to find that things have changed in the meantime. It is not as simple as it used to be.

In the DIRECTIVE 2006/126/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
of 20 December 2006
, Article 2(1) states:
Driving licences issued by Member States shall be mutually recognised.
This is the entire paragraph. The are no qualifications. No IFs, BUTs or MAYBEs. No date restrictions. No requirement for the licence to be the modern photocard style. No requirement to carry an international licence or translation. Nothing.

Thus any valid UK licence must be recognised here in Finland. Regarding whether your licence is provisional or not, on the bottom of my licence (I also have an old paper one) it gives the "Date of category B test pass". If yours has a date there I don't see how anyone can claim it is a provisional licence.

That is the good news. If you want to stick your head in the sand you can stop reading now but there is also bad new in Article 2(2), the only other paragraph under the heading "Mutual recognition". This states:
When the holder of a valid national driving licence without the administrative validity period set out in Article 7(2) takes up normal residence in a Member State other than that which issued the driving licence, the host Member State may apply to the licence the administrative validity periods set out in that Article by renewing the driving licence, as from 2 years after the date on which the holder has taken up normal residence on its territory.
Note that this says "... host Member State may apply to the licence ...". So it is optional. Has Finland taken up that option? I don't know and I don't know how to check it.

Fast forward to Article 7(2) and this says, among other things:
As from 19 January 2013, licences issued by Member States for categories AM, A1, A2, A, B, B1 and BE shall have an administrative validity of 10 years.
A Member State may choose to issue such licences with an administrative validity of up to 15 years;
That, to me, is ambiguous. Read it one way and it says that the expiration date of your licence is not the date written on the licence but is instead 10 (or 15) years after the date of issue, so your licence (and mine) is no longer valid.
The other way of reading Article 7(2) is that it applies only to licences issued after 19 January 2013, in which case our licences are still valid in the UK, and so must be recognised in Finland - except that Finland may choose to regard them as expired.

I think we need to look into this more. There are 3 possibilities:

a) As from 19 January 2013 our licences have expired. I don't think this can be true. If it were, how would it be possible for any licence not to have the new validity periods? The directive makes it clear that such a possibility exists, when it states in Article 2(2) that "When the holder of a valid national driving licence without the administrative validity period set out in Article 7(2) ...". Or did that possibility exist before 19 January 2013 but not now?

b) As from 19 January 2013 our licences have continued to be valid in the UK but Finland regards them as expired. I see this as a real possibility. We could be in the ridiculous position of having a licence valid in the UK and everywhere in the EU except Finland.

c) Paper licences are still valid in the UK and Finland has not taken up the option in Article 2(2) so our licences are still valid here.

I think we need to check 2 things. Are our papers licence still valid in the UK, and does Finland apply the 10 (or 15) year validity period to them?

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dave071061
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Re: UK Drivers Licence conversion

Post by dave071061 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:27 pm

The other thing to consider and the only reason I changed my license to a Finnish one, What happens if your paper license is lot or destroyed?
You would then be in a position of not being able to get a Finnish license because you don´t have one to swap, and you won´t have one to swap in the UK for a new license even if you could prove residency as needed.

DMC
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Re: UK Drivers Licence conversion

Post by DMC » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:03 pm

Are you saying a UK resident who lost their paper licence would be unable to obtain a replacement?

Rip
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Re: UK Drivers Licence conversion

Post by Rip » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:12 pm

DMC wrote: That, to me, is ambiguous. Read it one way and it says that the expiration date of your licence is not the date written on the licence but is instead 10 (or 15) years after the date of issue, so your licence (and mine) is no longer valid.
The other way of reading Article 7(2) is that it applies only to licences issued after 19 January 2013, in which case our licences are still valid in the UK, and so must be recognised in Finland - except that Finland may choose to regard them as expired.
I read they are valid for now, but eventually this becomes important:
Member States shall ensure that, by 19 January 2033, all
driving licences issued or in circulation fulfil all the requirements
of this Directive.
Same year is also stated on the pages of Finnish police:
http://www.poliisi.fi/poliisi/home.nsf/ ... endocument
So the old license is valid for a maximum of nineteen years right now.
Last edited by Rip on Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

DMC
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Re: UK Drivers Licence conversion

Post by DMC » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:26 pm

I would read it the same way as you, but it would be nice to have an official categorical statement on that.
Good catch about the 2033 date. I had ignored that because my licence will expire on my 70th birthday which is before that date, but it could be important for others who are not so ancient.

Upphew
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Re: UK Drivers Licence conversion

Post by Upphew » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:25 pm

DMC wrote:Are you saying a UK resident who lost their paper licence would be unable to obtain a replacement?
Pretty much so. At least that has been the sentiment when switching to Finnish license has been previously discussed.
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Rick1

Re: UK Drivers Licence conversion

Post by Rick1 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:53 pm

I remember that it is written somewhere that you have to change your foreign license for a Finnish one when you are living permanent here. There is a time limit for that. If you do not change it in that period, you have to do an (expensive) test here. You might look it up in the poliisi pages. Many people are angry because (from the EU) they have to renew their license now every 15 year if something changes (upgrade, theft etc.) earlier it was almost for life.

Rosamunda
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Re: UK Drivers Licence conversion

Post by Rosamunda » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:54 pm

Upphew wrote:
DMC wrote:Are you saying a UK resident who lost their paper licence would be unable to obtain a replacement?
Pretty much so. At least that has been the sentiment when switching to Finnish license has been previously discussed.
I did lose my GB licence while living in France, probably in the 80s and I got a replacement. Long time ago though.

Of course Swansea has all the records on their database as long as you can prove who you are. I have photocopies and a scanned copy of all my papers just in case I lose them.

However, to get a replacement... you need to prove residency - which is the Catch. I was actually thinking of writing to Swansea to say I had lost my licence in the hope that they would issue me with a "plastic" replacement with the proper *new* codes so that I could THEN swap for a Finnish one. OK, it would mean sending off my passport for a month, but I could probably cope with that (it runs out soon anyway).


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