Joint Custody & parents living in seperate countries

pieming · Post by **pieming** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:24 pm

hi, this is my first post although I've been reading this forum for some time. I'm looking for some advice on my current situation.

I'm from the UK and will be marrying a Finnish girl this year. We currently live in the UK (she moved in with me last year) however my partner has a 3 year old son from her previous marriage and has joint custody with her ex-husband as per Finnish law. Before she moved to the UK she had a mediation meeting with the courts (judge, phsycologist etc involved) to discuss the possibility of her son coming with her to live with us. Her ex-husband did not give permission for his sonto live in the UK (which I believe is his right according to finnish law). He cited that it would be difficult for him to see his son if he was living in the UK. The courts took this on board and they came to an agreement where my partner's son would stay in Finland with his father but they would still have joint custody. They agreed that she could see him whenever she wanted for periods of up to one week & for a 2 week holiday at some point in the future. There were a couple of reasons which the judge gave why he agreed with not allowing my partner's son to live in the UK. The first was our relationship was fairly new at the time (august last year but we have known each other for over 7 years & my partner used to live in the UK before marrying her ex-husband) and they wanted to see if we would last which I don't think is unreasnoble when the welfare of a child is concerened. The other reason they had reservations was my partner's ex husband's family all live close by to where their son lives & he would not have access to them easily if he moved to the UK. Also, my partner's ex-husband has another son (who lives aprox 5 hours away by train and visits once a month). The judge also said that if my partner's son was to move here he it would impact his relationship with his elder brother as well as his father's family. For the record my partner's family live near Oulu and she lived in Tampere with her son before moving to the UK.

Recently we have found out that my partner is pregnant. She will be due later this year after we are married and we intend to stay in the UK to bring up our child. What I'm asking is if anyone knows of a similar situation and what kind of impact this would have on any further mediation meetings and custody rights. We have another meeting scheduled for August to review the situation because the court said this new agreement would be in place for a year to see how my partner and I would get on. I'm aware that the Finnish process will always put the child's welfare first and that was shown during the first mediation meeting. Also, I'm aware that ultimately my partner's son can't live in the UK without her ex-husbands permission at this stage unless we started legal proceedings for her to gain sole custody (which we don't want to do as we still want her son to have a relationship with his father). The question I'm asking is how much (if any) does the fact my partner's son would have the opportunity to live all of the time with one sibling in the UK as opposed to seeing his elder brother once a month if he lived in Finland with his father. Is that something which would be taken into consideration when going through mediation?

Also, before anyone asks moving to Finland is an option but not one we'd like to take as I have a good job here in the UK but I don't have the Finnish language skills so it would be difficult for me to find work. Also, I work for an airline so travel can be cheap for me & my partner to get to & from Finland (we did offer to pay for flights and physically take her son to and from Finland in the first medation meeting to make things easier for her exhusband to see his son)

I'm sorry for the length but if anyone can give me any advice/opinions I would be grateful.

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Rip · Post by **Rip** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:47 am

pieming wrote:hi, this is my first post although I've been reading this forum for some time. I'm looking for some advice on my current situation.

I'm from the UK and will be marrying a Finnish girl this year. We currently live in the UK (she moved in with me last year) however my partner has a 3 year old son from her previous marriage and has joint custody with her ex-husband as per Finnish law. Before she moved to the UK she had a mediation meeting with the courts (judge, phsycologist etc involved) to discuss the possibility of her son coming with her to live with us. Her ex-husband did not give permission for his sonto live in the UK (which I believe is his right according to finnish law). He cited that it would be difficult for him to see his son if he was living in the UK. The courts took this on board and they came to an agreement where my partner's son would stay in Finland with his father but they would still have joint custody. They agreed that she could see him whenever she wanted for periods of up to one week & for a 2 week holiday at some point in the future. There were a couple of reasons which the judge gave why he agreed with not allowing my partner's son to live in the UK. The first was our relationship was fairly new at the time (august last year but we have known each other for over 7 years & my partner used to live in the UK before marrying her ex-husband) and they wanted to see if we would last which I don't think is unreasnoble when the welfare of a child is concerened. The other reason they had reservations was my partner's ex husband's family all live close by to where their son lives & he would not have access to them easily if he moved to the UK. Also, my partner's ex-husband has another son (who lives aprox 5 hours away by train and visits once a month). The judge also said that if my partner's son was to move here he it would impact his relationship with his elder brother as well as his father's family. For the record my partner's family live near Oulu and she lived in Tampere with her son before moving to the UK.

Recently we have found out that my partner is pregnant. She will be due later this year after we are married and we intend to stay in the UK to bring up our child. What I'm asking is if anyone knows of a similar situation and what kind of impact this would have on any further mediation meetings and custody rights. We have another meeting scheduled for August to review the situation because the court said this new agreement would be in place for a year to see how my partner and I would get on. I'm aware that the Finnish process will always put the child's welfare first and that was shown during the first mediation meeting. Also, I'm aware that ultimately my partner's son can't live in the UK without her ex-husbands permission at this stage unless we started legal proceedings for her to gain sole custody (which we don't want to do as we still want her son to have a relationship with his father). The question I'm asking is how much (if any) does the fact my partner's son would have the opportunity to live all of the time with one sibling in the UK as opposed to seeing his elder brother once a month if he lived in Finland with his father. Is that something which would be taken into consideration when going through mediation?

Also, before anyone asks moving to Finland is an option but not one we'd like to take as I have a good job here in the UK but I don't have the Finnish language skills so it would be difficult for me to find work. Also, I work for an airline so travel can be cheap for me & my partner to get to & from Finland (we did offer to pay for flights and physically take her son to and from Finland in the first medation meeting to make things easier for her exhusband to see his son)

I'm sorry for the length but if anyone can give me any advice/opinions I would be grateful.

As man as father I say it would be a terrible disappointment such attempt would even lead to desired result. I have strong feeling the courts are often biased against fathers but this seems like an extraordinary clear case. You wife to be (hardly "a girl" anymore) decided to move abroad and leave her 2-3 year old child behind. He has been living with his father since and you don't indicate the father would have been particularly bad at parenting.

Upphew · Post by **Upphew** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:13 am

Dunno if it matters in any way, but the kid moving abroad would mean that he would be out of Finnish court's jurisdiction. Might play a role too when deciding the case.

rinso · Post by **rinso** » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:17 am

I'm not seeing any indication that the situation has dramatically changed.
The arguments why the court decided in the fathers favor are still in place.
Her being pregnant and your relation a little older has no impact on the relation of the boy and his family.

The pregnancy might even be a negative factor.
Young children often feel ignored when a new baby comes and mommy has little time for them.
This can be especially hard for the boy if he just moved to a new country.

misnomere · Post by **misnomere** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:15 pm

@pieming
Even though this might sound a little provocative to some, But frankly, I don't give a rat's ass, all I care about are just the children.

I don't know if you are blind, But I think it is too late already to wake you up. This woman of your is willing (Or actually already planned) to throw her own flesh (Her own little child) to move with a man and sees her own little child occasionally... What a perfect mom... I wonder what kind of heart she has (That if she have any).

Doesn't that scare the !"#¤% out of you? Do you feel you can trust that woman?

Now she is pregnant with your child, and maybe after a year or two she will dump your sorry ass for a man in Mozambique or Guatemala and she will leave you and your child in a heartbeat to run after another man... Why? Because her history says so.

Good luck. Anyways, I think people get what they deserve...

Liam1 · Post by **Liam1** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:52 pm

Don't agree with the previous post and certainly not its delivery, but a legalistic version of this could be presented to your wife if it comes to a court ruling. As a result I'd strongly recommend that you make an agreement with the ex husband.

We had a similar dilemma (2 year old; Finnish Dad; we moved to Belgium). We actually agreed for a system that would allow us both 2 weeks' custody in each place. It worked well, if a bit expensive (we paid the flights, so 12 returns over the year), but you said that you have discounted ticket oportunities. Ironically once we got back to Finland, our daughter started to live with us full time - I think the idea of a child being far away makes a parent more strict on ensuring they maintain rights.

You would need to get agreement with your wife's ex - while we had a lawyer who felt that she may have a chance, I don't really believe we'd have got this agreement if we had been in dispute.

The other complication is that the school ages in the UK are earlier. Not sure what would happen if your wife's child would get into the UK system - you'd not just be able to take him out of school to allow the ex the reasonable access. That may go against you as from next year, if the boy is in school, the ex's access could be limited to short weekends (travel eats into this) and holidays

Flossy1978 · Post by **Flossy1978** » Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:18 am

I agree with missnomere. Even if her wording a bit of a put off.

Your wife gave up her child for a man.

That child is now living with his Father. You have no rights now that you are making your own little family to rip the abandoned child from his Father.

Since my own child's Father pretty much has done the same thing to our child, I truly hope you'll leave the child with his Father. You won't win in court. The Finnish Government will not see it favourable for their own Finnish child to be taken from his Father and put with a Mother because she now has another child.

I'm sorry to sound mean, but your wife's actions were selfish and now you two are both acting selfish for yourselves instead of thinking about that little boy who must at least have a decent life with his Father now.

Ask yourselves what gives you this right? What about the Father who stepped up to the plate and took this child when he was abandoned? Is it fair to him?

I hope you'll come to your senses and think about this young child. Not try to rip him from his Father because you think the child is better off with you because you have another child and the Father doesn't. The whole idea is just so wrong.

Flossy1978 · Post by **Flossy1978** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:34 pm

I kind of agree with what you are saying.

But she left the child because I guess the Father wouldn't have let her take the child, so she chose a man over her son..... Lots of parents do this in divorce.

But in saying so the child now has a life with his Father. And has for some years I presume.

Do you think it's right because now because the Mother may be emotionally ready to take her child, to just think she can have him? Take him from the life he has created with his Father? That the Father who stepped up to the plate and has been raising the child all this time should lose his son because the Mum has created a new family and wants the child now? That's what I question. Most of all, is it fair to the poor child? His life is with his Dad. How will it harm the child to be ripped from one parent to the other?

I don't even understand the reasoning that it's because they are having a child, that this first child should be with it's sibling. I guessed the Father doesn't have any other children, so being with a sibling would be better for the child than being with his Father?

I hope that they will come to their senses and do what is best for the child. He should stay with his Dad. The child's life has been created with his Father during the most important years of his life (when children are toddlers). There is nothing wrong with the child visiting more often with his Mother so he can see his sibling, but he should stay with his Dad. For both the child and Dad's sake. You just can't take away the Dad's rights either because the Mum wants something different now.

I don't think they'll ever win in court. Abandonment for whatever reason is really frowned upon in Finland. And creating a new family with a sibling isn't any good reason to change custody, take the Father's rights away. No court is going to allow this. The child's stability and welfare are what matters in court. At least in Finland.

Yes, no one is perfect, we all make mistakes. But there are parents out there who do think just of themselves when divorcing or leaving their partners and they do ditch their children. Purely for selfish reasons, like finding someone new to love. They do it because they know there is another parent who can care for the child. But it's still selfish, whatever the motive. Now the point is should another selfish move be made to take a child from the parent who stepped up and put the child first and has been raising him, to please what the mother wants now?

If it goes ahead, I think that will be one messed up child. People forget how badly divorce can mess with small children's heads. How it affects their future, their outlook on life etc. I have recently watched my child change dramatically once the Stepmother's hatred of him got so bad she would leave the house when my ex had visitation. My son thought he was getting his Dad back. He was so happy and being so positive about visiting his Dad etc. Until the news was broken to him, that no, the Stepmother can't stay away everytime you go to visit your Father. My child reverted back to talking horribly and acting out because it would mean he doesn't get to be with his Isi much and there is so much tension in that house when he would go there. Oh well.

I hope they come to some fair agreement for what is right for the child

If they can't the Lastenvalvoja will and the outcome won't be in the mother's favour.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:20 pm

Cory wrote:If you have led a perfect morally fit life and you have never done anything in your life that you regret then you are "qualified" to judge the woman and her behaviour.

In the end, the moral judgment isn't even the most relevant question. Without judging your ex, do you think, if you had stayed in Canada and he had decided to try to have the custody from you after one year, that he would have had any chance what so ever to have a court rule in his favor?

It's only one side of the story that we see here.

yeah, but it supposed to be her side, even if by proxy...

Tiwaz · Post by **Tiwaz** » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:12 pm

Let's look at this from position of child and social safety net.

In Finland, there is Dad. There are relatives of mom. There are relatives of dad.

In UK, there is mom. Step-dad and his relatives are not family and should not be expected to be relied as such.

pieming · Post by **pieming** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:39 pm

Ok, I've read some of the replies to my original post. First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for their honest and frank replies. I think I need to clarify one or two points. First of all everyone needs to know that this wasn't a descion taken lightly by my partner. In fact, it was made with the assistance of the mediation service of the finnish courts. We asked permission from her ex to allow their son to move to the UK with her but he refused. We did offer to pay for all of the flights to allow her ex to see his son as regularly as possible. It's now been almost 4 months since she moved here and she visted her son every month since. At every turn her ex has been obstructive and not willing to compromise. We have adhered to the agreement and have asked permission from him to stay with us for a longer period of time before our baby is born and wll be asking to do the same after the birth as well. He has refused this as well. He made a number of commitments during the mediation meeting which he has not adhered to e.g he agreed to sign the passport documents and has yet to do so. He has also done a number of things to make life a difficult which I don't really want to go into to much detail but it's along the lines of not packing enough clothes or hands over dirty laundry when my partner picks up her son for her visits.

So as someone mentioned it is not as cut and dry as my partner abandoning her son, there were a lot of very good reasons to leave her ex husband and the town they lived in (which she did not have any family there as they lived in another part of Finland). She was going to move from their anyway even if she had not got together with me. The only reason we have this situation is because she moved to a different country and not stayed in Finland.

So, this situation has been going on for only a matter of months but I do understand that as time goes on it will become more difficult for her son to move here permantly. If (and possibly when) this happens all we will not persue any kind of sole custody for my partner but work with her ex to hopefully come to an amicable solution. All I was asking was how much her pregnancy could effect the mediation/joint custody process. Again, I'd like to thank everyone who has given honest and frank opinions because that is what I wanted.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:05 pm

pieming wrote:He made a number of commitments during the mediation meeting which he has not adhered to e.g he agreed to sign the passport documents and has yet to do so.

Did you have deal that he should allow the son to travel abroad with his mother (now)?

rinso · Post by **rinso** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:13 pm

All I was asking was how much her pregnancy could effect the mediation/joint custody process.

As I said before it will not make things easier.

pieming · Post by **pieming** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:26 pm

Rip wrote:
pieming wrote:He made a number of commitments during the mediation meeting which he has not adhered to e.g he agreed to sign the passport documents and has yet to do so.

Did you have deal that he should allow the son to travel abroad with his mother (now)?

Yes, it was agreed that he could visit the UK for short periods of time which is why we are asking permission from her ex to allow him to stay for a longer periods.

rinso wrote:
All I was asking was how much her pregnancy could effect the mediation/joint custody process.
As I said before it will not make things easier.

I do think your right. Your opinion is helping in deciding how we procede.

Tiwaz · Post by **Tiwaz** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:34 am

pieming wrote:
Yes, it was agreed that he could visit the UK for short periods of time which is why we are asking permission from her ex to allow him to stay for a longer periods.

Which he does not have to agree to. He only has to do what was agreed beforehand.
If he is not willing to permit longer meetings, you are not going to get any.

And really, few months after move trying to immediately get more out of him is really not very smart. If you had made that question say 2-3 years from now, he would feel different. Now you guys slapped him with more requests after ink on the original agreement has had barely enough time to dry.
What is worse, if he is like Finns in general... He won't forget that either. So while he might have been willing to agree 2-3 years from now, after this he is less likely to be agreeing then either.

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