Sinuhe 2011

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jahasjahas
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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by jahasjahas » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:08 pm

AldenG wrote:Then again nobody native has complained about it, so I'm scratching my head a little about that.
I didn't really follow the kasa conversation, but you're absolutely right. The genitive in "kassojen kasa" sounds like a calque of "a pile of cash registers", not like something a native speaker would ever say.



Re: Sinuhe 2011

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maximumforum
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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by maximumforum » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:39 am

I'm doing like Rob A. too, and I'm wondering whether I could post some paragraphs and my translations here and liven up the discussion or if that would be hijacking Rob's thread, or if this thread is best kept as a "everything Sinuhe" instead of fragmenting. Rob, what do you think? Any ideas?

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jahasjahas
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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by jahasjahas » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:48 am

Kaikki palaa ennalleen eikä mitään uutta ole auringon alla eikä ihminen muutu, vaikka hänen vaatteensa muuttuvat ja myös hänen kielensä sanat muuttuvat. Siksi uskon, ettei tulevinakaan aikoina Sinuhe 2011 -ketjuun kirjoittaminen muutu siitä, mitä tähän asti on kirjoitettu, koska ihminen itse ei muutu.

I think you should use the same thread. Hopefully you'll be motivated by each others' attempts. :thumbsup:

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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by maximumforum » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:24 am

Okay. :D I have only read one Moomin book in Finnish before. Here goes my first part, which is where Rob last reached, I think. I'm an Egyptian guy, by the way, but I'm not Sinuhe. ;)
Mutta tämä oli vain yksinkertaista juttelua, hänen lapsekkaan mielensä mukaista[1], ja hän toivoi myös minun aina pakenevan vaaroja välttyäkseni vastoinkäymisistä. Siksi hän nimitti minut Sinuheksi.
Kuitenkin Ammonin papit sanovat, että ihmisen nimi on enne. Siksi kenties nimeni saattoi minut vaaroihin ja seikkailuihin ja vieraihin maihin. Nimeni kai saattoi minut osalliseksi peloittavista salaisuuksista, kuninkaiden ja heidän vaimojensa salaisuuksia, jotka voivat tuottaa kuoleman[2]. Lopuksi nimeni teki minusta karkotetun ja maanpakolaisen.
But this was only a simple tale, by her childish mind's accord, and she also hoped for me to always escape dangers in order for me to avoid adversity. Therefore she named me Sinuhe.
However, Amon's priests said, that a human's name is an omen. Therefore, my name has possibly brought me into dangers and adventures and foreign lands. Possibly, my name brought me as a participant in frightening secrets, kings' and their wives' secrets, who/which can produce death. Finally, my name made of me a banished and an exile.
Mutta yhtä lapsellinen kuin oli Kipa-poloisen ajatus hänen antaessaan minulle tuon nimen, yhtä lapsellista olisi kuivtella, että nimellä olisi mitään merkitystä ihmisen kohtaloihin. Samoin olisi minun käynyt, vaikka nimeni olisi ollut Kepru tai Kafran tai Mose, niin uskon.
But equally childish as Kipa's miserable thought in giving me that name, as would be to imagine, that a name would have anything of meaning to a human's destiny. I would have fared the same, even if my name had been Kepru or Kafran or Mose, so I believe.
Kuitenkaan ei voi kieltää, että Sinuhesta tuli maanpakolainen, kun sen sijaan[3], Heb, haukan poika, kruunattiin Horemhebinä punaisella ja valkoisella kruunulla ylämaan ja alamaan hallitsijaksi. Niin että nimen enteellisyydestä uskokoon kukin, mitä hyvänsä itse haluaa. Onpahan kullakin uskossana lohdutus elämän vastoinkäymisissä ja pahuudessa[4].
However, you can't deny/forbid, that from Sinuhe came an exile, and in its/his place, Heb, hawk's son, was crowned in Horemheb's red and white crown as the ruler of highland and lowland. So that in name's predictions let each believe, whatever they want. Mayhaps there is for everyone in belief comfort in life's adversities and evil.
  1. Is this expression common? Jonkin jotain:nsä mukaista?
  2. Jotka is pronoun for the kings and their wives, right?
  3. What is 'se' here? Is it Sinuhe (the name), or the maanpakolainen (the person that he ended up being)? I wonder, because I learned that in modern colliqual Finnish, se is sometimes used instead of hän, but there is no way that this was written in a book like this, so it probably is about the name Sinuhe, not the exiled dude. so I'm confused. Is it even correct to write hänen sijan?
  4. This hurts my brain. Can someone break it apart?
P.S Having a good dictionary like Nykysuomen Sanakirja helped as there are words I couldn't find from the Internets.
P.P.S If there are typoes in the Finnish text, it's because I typed it in myself.

EDIT: editing my edit out. Nevermind. :D
Last edited by maximumforum on Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jukka Aho
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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by Jukka Aho » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:36 pm

maximumforum wrote:hänen lapsekkaan mielensä mukaista[1],
[...] Is this expression common? Jonkin jotain:nsä mukaista?
Yes. It’s a fairly common pattern. For example, se ei olisi hänen etunsa mukaista.
maximumforum wrote:kuninkaiden ja heidän vaimojensa salaisuuksia, jotka voivat tuottaa kuoleman[2].
Jotka is pronoun for the kings and their wives, right?
Not really. It refers to the word salaisuuksia... or rather, the entire noun phrase which specifies we’re talking about the secrets which originate from the kings and their wives.
maximumforum wrote:Mutta yhtä lapsellinen kuin oli Kipa-poloisen ajatus hänen antaessaan minulle tuon nimen, [...]
But equally childish as Kipa's miserable thought in giving me that name
Rather: “But equally childish as the poor Kipa’s thought in giving...”. The word “poor” meaning “pitiable”, “wretched”, “unfortunate”, “ill-advised”, probably in an affectionate sense.
maximumforum wrote:Kuitenkaan ei voi kieltää, että Sinuhesta tuli maanpakolainen, kun sen sijaan[3], Heb, haukan poika, kruunattiin Horemhebinä punaisella ja valkoisella kruunulla ylämaan ja alamaan hallitsijaksi.

What is 'se' here? Is it Sinuhe (the name), or the maanpakolainen (the person that he ended up being)? I wonder, because I learned that in modern colliqual Finnish, se is sometimes used instead of hän, but there is no way that this was written in a book like this, so it probably is about the name Sinuhe, not the exiled dude. so I'm confused.
(kun) sen sijaan = “instead”, “as opposed to”, “whereas”

“Nonetheless, it cannot be denied that Sinuhe became an exile, whereas Heb, the Son of Hawk, was crowned...”
maximumforum wrote:Is it even correct to write hänen sijan?
https://www.google.fi/search?q=%22h%C3% ... ijaansa%22
https://www.google.fi/search?q=%22h%C3% ... jalleen%22
maximumforum wrote:Niin että nimen enteellisyydestä uskokoon kukin, mitä hyvänsä itse haluaa. Onpahan kullakin uskossana lohdutus elämän vastoinkäymisissä ja pahuudessa[4].
“So, on the subject of the name being / having been an omen, let anyone believe whatever they themselves will. Such beliefs should give their holders comfort in the misfortunes and wickedness of (their) life.”
znark

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jahasjahas
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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by jahasjahas » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:01 pm

Mutta tämä oli vain yksinkertaista juttelua, hänen lapsekkaan mielensä mukaista
But this was only a simple tale, by her childish mind's accord
I'd say: "But this (=Kipa saying that baby Sinuhe had escaped dangers to come to them, just like the Sinuhe of the tale did) was just simple chatter, something that suited her childish mind / something that made sense considering her childish mind."
Mutta yhtä lapsellinen kuin oli Kipa-poloisen ajatus hänen antaessaan minulle tuon nimen, yhtä lapsellista olisi kuivtella, että nimellä olisi mitään merkitystä ihmisen kohtaloihin. Samoin olisi minun käynyt, vaikka nimeni olisi ollut Kepru tai Kafran tai Mose, niin uskon.

But equally childish as Kipa's miserable thought in giving me that name, as would be to imagine, that a name would have anything of meaning to a human's destiny. I would have fared the same, even if my name had been Kepru or Kafran or Mose, so I believe.
"But as childish as was poor Kipa's thought when she gave me that name, as childish is it to imagine that a name would matter when it comes to a person's destinies. I would have fared the same / The same things would have happened to me / I would have ended up with the same fate, even if..."
Kuitenkaan ei voi kieltää, että Sinuhesta tuli maanpakolainen, kun sen sijaan, Heb, haukan poika, kruunattiin Horemhebinä punaisella ja valkoisella kruunulla ylämaan ja alamaan hallitsijaksi. Niin että nimen enteellisyydestä uskokoon kukin, mitä hyvänsä itse haluaa. Onpahan kullakin uskossansa lohdutus elämän vastoinkäymisissä ja pahuudessa.

However, you can't deny/forbid, that from Sinuhe came an exile, and in its/his place, Heb, hawk's son, was crowned in Horemheb's red and white crown as the ruler of highland and lowland. So that in name's predictions let each believe, whatever they want. Mayhaps there is for everyone in belief comfort in life's adversities and evil.
"However, you can't deny that Sinuhe became an exile, when instead Heb (/when on the other hand Heb), the son of the hawk, was crowned as Horemheb (=was crowned and received the name "Horemheb") with a red and white crown to be the ruler of highland and lowland. So, when it comes to whether a name is an omen, let each person believe whatever they want. At least each person has their faith as a consolation in life's adversities and evil."

The last section is confusing for several reasons. "Niin että" is something you'd expect to hear as a connecting phrase in a discussion, not in a written text. The word order is changed to move "nimen enteellisyydestä" to the front. The clitics -pa and -han in "onpahan" are infamously hard to translate. "(on) uskossansa lohdutus" is a pretty poetic way of saying the thing. (I'm not sure whether you could say "At least everyone has in their faith a consolation" in English.)

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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by maximumforum » Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:05 am

Jukka Aho wrote: Rather: “But equally childish as the poor Kipa’s thought in giving...”. The word “poor” meaning “pitiable”, “wretched”, “unfortunate”, “ill-advised”, probably in an affectionate sense.
Oh yes, Kipa-poloisen, not Kipa-poloinen. Poor Kipa's, not Kipa's poor. I didn't realize that.
jahasjahas wrote:
Kuitenkaan ei voi kieltää, että Sinuhesta tuli maanpakolainen, kun sen sijaan, Heb, ...
"However, you can't deny that Sinuhe became an exile, when instead Heb (/when on the other hand Heb), ...
"Sinuhesta tuli maanpakolainen, kun sen sijaan."
Is Sinuhe the name or Sinuhe the person? I thought that it is the name, moreso that I see 'sen sijaan', in its place, and 'it' would be the name. I thought if it's the person, then we would have hänen sijaansa. He was also just talking about the name and the omens that come with it.
Or is sen sijan, the 'se' is not about Sinuhe the person? Is it somehow detached from the sentence before it?
jahasjahas wrote: The last section is confusing for several reasons. "Niin että" is something you'd expect to hear as a connecting phrase in a discussion, not in a written text. The word order is changed to move "nimen enteellisyydestä" to the front. The clitics -pa and -han in "onpahan" are infamously hard to translate. "(on) uskossansa lohdutus" is a pretty poetic way of saying the thing. (I'm not sure whether you could say "At least everyone has in their faith a consolation" in English.)
I think it makes sense in English. I have said things along the lines of this, about how people find comfort in their own religion.
Is this what kulla is?
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kulla#Finnish
I've never seen it used before.
----
My second part,
Minä synnyin suuren kuninkaan farao Amenhotep III:n hallitessa, ja samana vuonna syntyi hän, joka tahtoi elää totuudesta ja jonka nimeä ei enää saa mainita, koska se on kirottu nimi, vaikka silloin ei vielä tietenkään kukaan sitä tiennyt[1]. Siski palatsissa vallitsi suuri riemu hänen syntyessään ja kuningas uhrasi lukuisia uhreja Ammonin suuressa temppelissä, jonka hän itse[2] oli rakennuttanut, ja myös kansa iloitsi tietämättä, mitä oli tuleva. Suuri, kuninkaallinen puoliso Teje oli näet turhaan odottanut poikalasta, vaikka hän oli ollut suuri kuninkaallinen puoliso jo kaksikymmentäkaksi vuotta ja hänen nimensä oli kirjoitettu kuninkaan nimen rinnalle temppeleissä ja kuvissa. Siksi hän, jonka nimeä ei saa minita, julistettiin suuren juhlamenoin[3] kuninkaallisen vallan perijäksi, niin pian kuin papit olivat ehtineet suorittaa ympärileikkausken.
I was born under the great pharao king Amenhotep III's rule, and in the same year was born he, who wanted to live in truth and who's name (you) can't mention anymore, because it is a cursed name, even at the time when nobody knew it. Therefore, in the palace prevailed a great joy at his birth and the king sacrificed several offerings in Amon's big temple, which he himself had built, and also the nation were glad unknowing, what was coming. The great, royal spouse Tiia had, you see, waited for a a boy, even thought she was the great royal spouse already for 22 years and her name was written to the side of king's name in temples and images. Therefore he, whose name can't be mentioned, was celebrated as the king power's heir, in big celebrations, as soon as the priests had managed to achieve circumcision.
  1. This is confusing. Even though not yet of course not anybody knew it?
  2. hän = Amon?
  3. suuren juhlamenoin. Is this genitive? Was celebrated big's celebration's? Huh?
Mutta hän syntyi vasta keväällä kyvlön aikaan, kun taas minä, Sinuhe, tulin jo edellisenä syksynä tulvan ollessa korkeimmillaan[1].
Mutta syntymäni päivää en tiedä, sillä tulin Niiliä pitkin pienessä kaislaveneessä, joka oli tiivistetty piellä, ja äitini Kipa löysi minut rannan kaislikosta lähellä oman talonsta kynnystä, niin korkealle oli vesi silloin noussut. Pääskyset olivat juuri tulleet ja visersivät pääni ympärillä, mutta itse olin vaiti ja hän luuli minun kuolleen. Hän vei minut taloonsa ja lämmitti minua hiilivalkean[2] ääressä ja puhlasi henkeaä suuhuni, kunnes aloin hiljaa vaikertaa.
But he was born only at spring's sowing time, when again I, Sinuhe, already came at the previous spring flood's peak.
But I do not know my birth's day, for I came along the Nile in a small reed boat, which was sealed with pitch, and my mother Kipa found me on the shore's bed of reeds near her own house's border/threshold, so/as high had the water rose at the time. Swallows had just came and twitterd around my head, but I had been silent and she thought me dead. She took me to her house and warmed me at the coal fire and blew breaths into my mouth, until I began to to wail quietly.
  1. Would someone break korkeimmillaan apart? I don't understand how it's built.
  2. According to Nykysuomen Sanakirja, hiilivalkea is hiilituli. Is valkea associated with tuli in Finnish? Is it used the same way in other expressions?

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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by AldenG » Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:57 am

Wow, this is moving quickly again. I only have a moment and I'm on my mobile, but think of 'sen sijaan' as a self-contained adverb in which 'se' almost has no formal antecedent. The comma plus kun helps break any thread between 'se' and a particular antecedent word. So the anetcedent (if any!) becomes 'all that' -- in this case, the fact that Sinuhe became an exile.

In this context, whereas (or literally 'when instead') works best, though as Jukka points out, it is often more like 'instead' or 'instead of' - sen sijaan, että is very common. And a Finn might say in English 'You could come now instead of that you would come next week.'

It is hypothetically possible for the 'se' in sen sijaan to refer to an individual preceding word, but that is uncommon and you should first expect the phrase to be working as the adverb instead. (On edit: managed to squeeze in the pun, sort of.)
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.

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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by Jukka Aho » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:17 am

maximumforum wrote:"Sinuhesta tuli maanpakolainen, kun sen sijaan."
Is Sinuhe the name or Sinuhe the person?
The person... with that name.
maximumforum wrote:I thought that it is the name, moreso that I see 'sen sijaan', in its place, and 'it' would be the name. I thought if it's the person, then we would have hänen sijaansa. He was also just talking about the name and the omens that come with it.
Or is sen sijan, the 'se' is not about Sinuhe the person? Is it somehow detached from the sentence before it?
You might be overanalyzing it.

..., (kun) sen sijaan is a fixed expression which simply introduces another viewpoint to the matter... or (ironically?) juxtaposes what was just said with this other (perhaps not wholly unrelated) turn of the events.

Hence, the equivalent in English would be “whereas”, “when in turn”, or some similar expression, depending on the context.

(OK, Alden beat me to it.)
znark

AldenG
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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by AldenG » Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:27 am

maximumforum wrote: ----
My second part,
Minä synnyin suuren kuninkaan farao Amenhotep III:n hallitessa, ja samana vuonna syntyi hän, joka tahtoi elää totuudesta ja jonka nimeä ei enää saa mainita, koska se on kirottu nimi, vaikka silloin ei vielä tietenkään kukaan sitä tiennyt[1]. Siski palatsissa vallitsi suuri riemu hänen syntyessään ja kuningas uhrasi lukuisia uhreja Ammonin suuressa temppelissä, jonka hän itse[2] oli rakennuttanut, ja myös kansa iloitsi tietämättä, mitä oli tuleva. Suuri, kuninkaallinen puoliso Teje oli näet turhaan odottanut poikalasta, vaikka hän oli ollut suuri kuninkaallinen puoliso jo kaksikymmentäkaksi vuotta ja hänen nimensä oli kirjoitettu kuninkaan nimen rinnalle temppeleissä ja kuvissa. Siksi hän, jonka nimeä ei saa minita, julistettiin suuren juhlamenoin[3] kuninkaallisen vallan perijäksi, niin pian kuin papit olivat ehtineet suorittaa ympärileikkausken.
I was born under the great pharao king Amenhotep III's rule, and in the same year was born he, who wanted to live in truth and who's name (you) can't mention anymore, because it is a cursed name, even at the time when nobody knew it. Therefore, in the palace prevailed a great joy at his birth and the king sacrificed several offerings in Amon's big temple, which he himself had built, and also the nation were glad unknowing, what was coming. The great, royal spouse Tiia had, you see, waited for a a boy, even thought she was the great royal spouse already for 22 years and her name was written to the side of king's name in temples and images. Therefore he, whose name can't be mentioned, was celebrated as the king power's heir, in big celebrations, as soon as the priests had managed to achieve circumcision.
  1. This is confusing. Even though not yet of course not anybody knew it?
  2. hän = Amon?
  3. suuren juhlamenoin. Is this genitive? Was celebrated big's celebration's? Huh?
Mutta hän syntyi vasta keväällä kyvlön aikaan, kun taas minä, Sinuhe, tulin jo edellisenä syksynä tulvan ollessa korkeimmillaan[1].
Mutta syntymäni päivää en tiedä, sillä tulin Niiliä pitkin pienessä kaislaveneessä, joka oli tiivistetty piellä, ja äitini Kipa löysi minut rannan kaislikosta lähellä oman talonsta kynnystä, niin korkealle oli vesi silloin noussut. Pääskyset olivat juuri tulleet ja visersivät pääni ympärillä, mutta itse olin vaiti ja hän luuli minun kuolleen. Hän vei minut taloonsa ja lämmitti minua hiilivalkean[2] ääressä ja puhlasi henkeaä suuhuni, kunnes aloin hiljaa vaikertaa.
But he was born only at spring's sowing time, when again I, Sinuhe, already came at the previous spring flood's peak.
But I do not know my birth's day, for I came along the Nile in a small reed boat, which was sealed with pitch, and my mother Kipa found me on the shore's bed of reeds near her own house's border/threshold, so/as high had the water rose at the time. Swallows had just came and twitterd around my head, but I had been silent and she thought me dead. She took me to her house and warmed me at the coal fire and blew breaths into my mouth, until I began to to wail quietly.
  1. Would someone break korkeimmillaan apart? I don't understand how it's built.
  2. According to Nykysuomen Sanakirja, hiilivalkea is hiilituli. Is valkea associated with tuli in Finnish? Is it used the same way in other expressions?

I would add a point #0 before your numbered questions. Your translation of the first sentence is natural; I would only want to ensure that you thoroughly understood hallitessa: while Amenhotep III was ruling, more literally "in Amnehotep III's ruling" where ruling is more of a verb than a noun. It's an odd but useful and reasonably common form. It feels novel because of the way it attaches -ssa to a verb form. It more often has a possessive ending on the end: Palatessani kapausta ajoin ojaan. While I was returning (in/during my returning) from the store I drove into a ditch.

-- Even at the time when nobody knew it.
Actually, this is: ...although at that time of course nobody knew that yet. (knew it was cursed)
This is Waltari (through Sinuhe) being sardonic, of which you will see a great deal in the book. He's making fun of the pomposity of the rulers and priests who pronounce a name to be inherently cursed for all time, even though (as far as I recall) this part of the text doesn't say all of that.

-- lukuisia uhreja
I would say "numerous" offerings rather than "several," but you're doing extraordinarily well.

-- hän itse
Hän refers to the king.

-- oli rakennuttanut
This is a pretty sophisticated point, but the ending -uttanut (infinitive -uttaa) tells us the king had caused the temple to be built (had it built) rather than building it himself. Of course in English we usually say he built it, either way.

-- suurin juhlamenoin is in the instructive case. If the book didn't spell it suurin, it's a typo, of which you'll find a few. It's means more or less 'by way of'. They celebrated his birth with festivities. This case is mostly seen in fixed expressions though with a good ear it's possible to make one up. A common one is kaikin keinoin, which means by/using all available means.

I would have said "perform" the circumcision but that's more of a translation thing than a comprehension thing, I expect.

-- korkeimmillaan
In form it is korkein,korkeimma- + i + lla + possessive -an.
But this form has the special meaning of "at its -est", in this case "at its highest"

-- olin vaiti ja hän luuli minun kuolleen
I was quiet (different tense from your translation) and she thought I had died ("believed my having died" in Finglish). Again your translation works fine as long as you understand how the original said what it was saying.
Last edited by AldenG on Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.

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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by AldenG » Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:39 am

If you google "valkean ääressä" with the quotation marks, you'll see that it occurs in some older literature including the Finnish bible. There also seem to be modern references to valkea as campfire or fireplace. I only knew nuotio for a small open fire, but valkea becomes clear from the context. It's not surprising that ancients and even not-very-ancients would have used white/bright as synonymous with fire. Without knowing the etymology, one could even wonder which meaning came first.

By the way, English obviously also has "in ruling" where it's a verb, although its meaning is more like "by ruling, as a consequence of ruling." And if we put a possessive on it, "in his ruling," the word ruling changes its role to be noun-like and is once again not quite like the Finnish -essa ending. They call it an infinitive and try to make it all kinds of "advanced" in most teaching, but all you really need to understand is what -essa and -essa/ni do to a verb, where /ni can be any personal possessive ending. Basically -essa = while doing; next topic, please.

I find it helpful to think of the "instructive" case (though I seldom think of it by name) as the "instrumental" case, since it means "using / with." Once you form a mental association between the ending and its effect or meaning, the names of things tend to fade into forgetfulness.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.

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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by Jukka Aho » Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:19 pm

AldenG wrote:If you google "valkean ääressä" with the quotation marks, you'll see that it occurs in some older literature including the Finnish bible. There also seem to be modern references to valkea as campfire or fireplace. I only knew nuotio for a small open fire, but valkea becomes clear from the context. It's not surprising that ancients and even not-very-ancients would have used white/bright as synonymous with fire. Without knowing the etymology, one could even wonder which meaning came first.
The word valkea, meaning “fire” — typically man-made and lit for some practical purpose — is very much alive in my regional (spoken) dialect of Finnish; the South Ostrobothnian dialect. Although it is usually realized as valakia, adhering to the idiosyncrasies of the dialect.
znark

Rob A.
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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by Rob A. » Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:11 am

Yes...I, too, am happy to see this thread moving again....

....but this is my busiest week of the year at work.... ;) I'll try to pop back in again next week.... It looks interesting and I'm sure will contain insights for me.

I find my Finnish is still slowly progressing.... I'm finding the grammar is not so much the problem now, but rather trying to remember, or half-remembering, what the stem words mean, or remembering what they mean in the context in which they are being used. In other words, the stem word looks familiar, but, darn, I can't quite remember what it means...

Then, of course, there are always the idiomatic expressions to provide further vexation... ;)

maximumforum
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:17 am

Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by maximumforum » Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:18 pm

AldenG wrote: I would add a point #0 before your numbered questions. Your translation of the first sentence is natural; I would only want to ensure that you thoroughly understood hallitessa: while Amenhotep III was ruling, more literally "in Amnehotep III's ruling" where ruling is more of a verb than a noun. It's an odd but useful and reasonably common form. It feels novel because of the way it attaches -ssa to a verb form. It more often has a possessive ending on the end: Palatessani kapausta ajoin ojaan. While I was returning (in/during my returning) from the store I drove into a ditch.
Yes, I can understand it but I didn't want to break English too much. It's difficult to translate FI > EN.
AldenG wrote: -- suurin juhlamenoin is in the instructive case. If the book didn't spell it suurin, it's a typo, of which you'll find a few. It's means more or less 'by way of'. They celebrated his birth with festivities. This case is mostly seen in fixed expressions though with a good ear it's possible to make one up. A common one is kaikin keinoin, which means by/using all available means.
The book spelled it suurin, it's my typo. Kaikin keinoin and also kaikin mokomin and kaikin tavoin and jollain tavoin etc.
AldenG wrote: -- korkeimmillaan
In form it is korkein,korkeimma- + i + lla + possessive -an.
But this form has the special meaning of "at its -est", in this case "at its highest"
Thanks!
AldenG wrote: -- oli rakennuttanut
This is a pretty sophisticated point, but the ending -uttanut (infinitive -uttaa) tells us the king had caused the temple to be built (had it built) rather than building it himself. Of course in English we usually say he built it, either way.
Oh, 'causuative aspect' of the verb. I know what it is but I didn't realize that that's what it is in this sentence.

I understand sen sijaan now. I was thinking of the individual bits rather than idiomatically. :)

I won't put everything here. I am already at book 3 and translating and posting all that here would take ages. So from now on, I will pick a random piece from wherever I am and post here to pick apart. :) This book is very fun!
----
Isäni Senmut palasi kotiin sairaskäynneiltään[1] kantaen kahta sorsaa ja vakallista jauhoja. Hän kuuli vikinäni ja luuli äitini Kipan hankkineen kissapoikasen ja alkoi torua häntä. Mutta äitin sanoi: "Ei se ole kissa, vaan minä olen saanut pojan! Iloitse, mieheni Senmut, meille on syntynyt poika."
Isäni suuttui ja sanoi häntä pölhöksi, mutta Kipa näytti minua hänelle ja avuttomuuteni liikutti isäni mieltä. Tällä tavoin he ottivat minut omaksi lapsekseen ja antoivat myös naapurien uskoa, että olin Kipasta syntynyt. Se oli hänen turhamaisuuttaan enkä tiedä, monetko häntä uskoivat.[2] Mutta kaislaveneen, jossa olin tullut, Kipa talletti ja ripusti huoneen kattoon vuoteen yläpuolelle.
My father Senmuth returned home from sick visits carrying two ducks and basket of juice. He heard my wailing and thought that my mother Kipa had bought a(/her fetching) kitten and began to scold her. But my mother said: "It is not a cat, but I have got a boy! Delight, my man Senmuth, a boy has been born to us."
My father got angry and called her an idiot, but Kipa showed me to him and my helplessness affected my father's mind. In this way they took me as their own son and gave the neighbors to believe, that I was born from Kipa. It was his futility not to know, how many believed him. But the reed boat, in which I came, Kipa stored and hung to a room's roof above above a bed.
----
Isäni otti parhaan kupraiastiansa ja vei sen temppeliin antaen kirjoittaa minut syntyneiden kirjaan omana poikanaan ja Kipan synnyttämänä. Mutta ympärileikkausen hän suoritti itse, koska oli lääkäri ja pelkäsi pappien veitsiä, jotka jättivät märkivä haavoja. Siksi hän ei sallinut pappien kajota minuun. Mutta kenties hän teki sen myös säästäväisyydestä, sillä köyhien lääkärinä hän ei suinkaan ollut varakas mies.
My father took his best copper container and brought it into the temple giving me to be written/registered in the borns' book as his own boy and Kipa's born. But the circumcision he preformed himself, because he was a doctor and he feared the priests' knives, which left abscessed wounds. Therefore he didn't allow the priests to touch/invade me. But possibly he also did for thriftiness, as the poors' doctor he was not a wealthy man by any means.
  1. sairaskäynneiltään. käynti + plural + ltä + genitive? His visits to the sick?
  2. Huh?

Jukka Aho
Posts: 5237
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:46 am
Location: Espoo, Finland

Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by Jukka Aho » Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:37 pm

maximumforum wrote:
Isäni Senmut palasi kotiin sairaskäynneiltään[1] kantaen kahta sorsaa ja vakallista jauhoja.

My father Senmuth returned home from sick visits carrying two ducks and basket of juice.
[...] sairaskäynneiltään. käynti + plural + ltä + genitive? His visits to the sick?
sairaskäynti = house call (of a medical doctor)

Note: jauho (pl. jauhot, partitive pl. jauhoja) = “flour”, not “juice”.
maximumforum wrote:
ällä tavoin he ottivat minut omaksi lapsekseen ja antoivat myös naapurien uskoa, että olin Kipasta syntynyt. Se oli hänen turhamaisuuttaan enkä tiedä, monetko häntä uskoivat.[2]
In this way they took me as their own son and gave the neighbors to believe, that I was born from Kipa. It was his futility not to know, how many believed him.
[...] Huh?
turhamaisuus = “vanity”... Maybe telling that to the neighbors made him/her feel better and prouder about themselves. Being able to produce such offspring and claim it as their own was (sort of like) an achievement, even if it wasn’t strictly speaking true. Also: keeping up appearances.

So: “It was (a display of) his/her vanity, and I (the narrator) do not know how many (of the neighbors) (actually) believed him/her.”
znark


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