Swedish speaking areas in Finland

[foca]

The whole conversation has degraded to percentages of population. But it is not that important . I think that nobody will contest the fact that Swedish people had a huge effect on the intellectual and cultural life of Finland. Most of the national poets and writers were either Swedish speaking or Swedish - Finnish bilinguals. There is no compatible situation in Sweden concerning Finnish speaking population.And when it comes to percentages , there is one important fact - many Finnish speaking people in Sweden are actually Swedish-Finnish immigrants from Finland ( i.e Swedish people on whom Finnish education system imposed Finnish language ) so it is kinda hard to say that they truly represent Finnish culture or purely Finnish traditions.

[Rip]

The whole conversation has degraded to percentages of population. But it is not that important . I think that nobody will contest the fact that Swedish people had a huge effect on the intellectual and cultural life of Finland. Most of the national poets and writers were either Swedish speaking or Swedish - Finnish bilinguals.

If you were educated in in this country at that time you had to be fluent in Swedish. It may be true that a significant fraction of their living descendants are that too, but so what? As a grounds for current day children to learn the language it is only mildly less anachronistic than compulsory Latin.

( i.e Swedish people on whom Finnish education system imposed Finnish language )

Smileys are not meant to imply some sort of joke or similar in the preceding sentence, not just plain stupidity in it.

many Finnish speaking people in Sweden are actually Swedish-Finnish immigrants from Finland so it is kinda hard to say that they truly represent Finnish culture or purely Finnish traditions.

Without long time concentrated effort to eradicate the language, Sweden too would have very significant native population speaking "wrong" language on their (northern) border areas. Some still remain. Anyway, regarding Sweden (the state), I am not asking them to adopt compulsory Finnish education, or raise the Finnish language to equal official status with Swedish. It just would be nice if they recognized that they lost that war some 200 years ago and therefore have no right to interfere with Finnish internal matters. If they actually thought about it a bit, they even themselves realize that THEIR objection to any change in the official status of Swedish language in Finland that still leaves it clearly above the status Finnish has in Sweden is probably counterproductive with the majority population here.

[foca]

If you were educated in in this country at that time you had to be fluent in Swedish. It may be true that a significant fraction of their living descendants are that too, but so what? As a grounds for current day children to learn the language it is only mildly less anachronistic than compulsory Latin.

If it comes to Latin being the key to a dozen of modern cultures, I would have liked to have it as part of my curriculum. Swedish unlike Latin is a living language of people who live in Finland.

Smileys are not meant to imply some sort of joke or similar in the preceding sentence, not just plain stupidity in it.

I allow you to completely ignore my smileys, which does not really contradict my statement. For even that Finish had become compulsory for Swedish speaking people, it was for many of them a conscious choice to start learning it. Unlike Germans in the Baltic states .

Without long time concentrated effort to eradicate the language, Sweden too would have very significant native population speaking "wrong" language on their (northern) border areas. Some still remain. Anyway, regarding Sweden (the state), I am not asking them to adopt compulsory Finnish education, or raise the Finnish language to equal official status with Swedish. It just would be nice if they recognized that they lost that war some 200 years ago and therefore have no right to interfere with Finnish internal matters. If they actually thought about it a bit, they even themselves realize that THEIR objection to any change in the official status of Swedish language in Finland that still leaves it clearly above the status Finnish has in Sweden is probably counterproductive with the majority population here.

Under current International law minority language question is not an "internal" matter , but lies within confines of certain international treaties ( European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages , to name just one). My point was not about where the position of minority language is more or less protected, it was about the fact that Swedish culture played an essential role in Finland unlike Finnish culture in Sweden. However complicated the situation in the Swedish realm was swedish speaking writers , poets, linguists did not try to destroy local culture and language ( like it happened in Ireland, in the hands of English). Many of them learned the language and blended into the local culture. And now two smileys

[Rip]

If it comes to Latin being the key to a dozen of modern cultures, I would have liked to have it as part of my curriculum.

I have no objection to you or anybody else voluntarily studying it. I would object to it being compulsory for all.

Swedish unlike Latin is a living language of people who live in Finland.

Only for a small fraction of them.

Under current International law minority language question is not an "internal" matter , but lies within confines of certain international treaties ( European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages , to name just one)

Position of Swedish is so much beyond and above the level of international norms, that those can be pretty much ignored for now. A Swede (citizen of Sweden) who gets involved matter such as compulsory study of Swedish in Finnish schools is getting involved in a internal matter. I'm OK if they comment on perceived benefits co-operation or so on (even if I disagreed), but if they frame it as a human rights issue (for the minority), then it is for me obvious that some humans are for them more equal than others.

My point was not about where the position of minority language is more or less protected, it was about the fact that Swedish culture played an essential role in Finland unlike Finnish culture in the Sweden.

It may be of historical interest, but I don't see the relevance to how for example education should be done NOW.

[foca]

It may be of historical interest, but I don't see the relevance to how for example education should be done NOW.

Forgetting history often leads to it being repeated. Swedish in Finland , the it exists and taught in schools, is a historic compromise that was reached against certain historical background, and led to pacifying and uniting the society in a Finland. Swedish takes a minor part in the curriculum , as a matter of fact , those who learn it in the secondary school end up with really a minor comprehension of it. It is a small price to be paid for the unity of the nation...

[Oho]

Forgetting history often leads to it being repeated. Swedish in Finland , the it exists and taught in schools, is a historic compromise that was reached against certain historical background, and led to pacifying and uniting the society in a Finland. Swedish takes a minor part in the curriculum , as a matter of fact , those who learn it in the secondary school end up with really a minor comprehension of it. It is a small price to be paid for the unity of the nation...

Given that compulsory Swedish was only introduced in the late sixties and early seventies and Swedish speakers actually objected to teaching Swedish to general Finnish speaking population in the early part of the 20th century hoping to retain their effective monopoly on higher education and thus higher office this sounds like !"#¤%. Funny that unity of the nation when the original raison d'être for the Swedish peoples party Sfp is that there is no nor can there be any unity: There are two separate nations with Swedish speakers being the enlightened one and Finnish speakers mere riff raff. Even more to the point, SfP of today is quite actively pursuing political agendas which view national unity, sense of nation, and what not as purely negative phenomena.

[Rip]

who learn it in the secondary school end up with really a minor comprehension of it. It is a small price to be paid for the unity of the nation...

I wonder if anybody else reading this thread has got the impression that they have been following a great UNIFYING effect in practice?

[foca]

I wonder if anybody else reading this thread has got the impression that they have been following a great UNIFYING effect in practice?

Perhaps that question should be directed to the Swedish speaking Finns ..

[Rip]

I wonder if anybody else reading this thread has got the impression that they have been following a great UNIFYING effect in practice?

Perhaps that question should be directed to the Swedish speaking Finns ..

So a small minority should decide on "unity"?

[foca]

So a small minority should decide on "unity"?

No, compromises are reached by both sides. Finland is a good example of it - both Finns and swedes tried to see the common future. Finns chose to hear what swedes had to say and kept the peace (and Ålands).

[Upphew]

(and Ålands).

Which somehow are exempt from bilingualism.

[foca]

(and Ålands).

Which somehow are exempt from bilingualism.

And yet i have not seen anyone from Ålands who does not speak Finnish. And if i am not mistaken, children in åLands have to learn Finnish in school

[Upphew]

And yet i have not seen anyone from Ålands who does not speak Finnish. And if i am not mistaken, children in åLands have to learn Finnish in school

You are mistaken. And you observe the results that come from voluntary studies.

[Rip]

No, compromises are reached by both sides. Finland is a good example of it - both Finns and swedes tried to see the common future. Finns chose to hear what swedes had to say and kept the peace (and Ålands).

Mandatory Swedish to all became reality in 1970's. What peace was about to be broken - and what was the connection to Åland? As for the requirement that all Finnish civil servants (and not just civil service as an organization) are supposed to know Swedish, also there you have no connection to the islands. We have only agreed to maintain their purely Swedish institutions.

I'm also frankly not too concerned about the threat caused by Swedish armed forces. Actually, if they were stronger i had no reason object to giving Ålands to them - though I'm pretty sure most of the inhabitants of the islands would oppose that most strongly.

So what exactly is the compromise from the Swedish side?

[foca]

You are mistaken. And you observe the results that come from voluntary studies.

well, if it is a voluntary decision to learn Finnish it proves my point even more so. They could go without Finnish in their social and work life , but they chose to make a step to become closer to Finland.