war veteran contribution collectors

[Godzilla]

We get the kids in uniforming coming around our house every once in a while, and I've always given them a few euros just because they seem to be out working so hard on their collections.

However, I got to wondering, what are they actually collecting for? I mean, it is all well and good to have collections to help disabled veterans, but there have got to be like 10 living veterans left.

I suppose a lot of people do it for the patriotism of it all, but when you come down to it, my country fought on the OTHER SIDE of that a particular war (remembering that Finland was actually a German ally; it is sort of de-emphasized the way Finns tend to tell the story), and some of my family members didn't come back, so while I suppose suffering is suffering, if I were to give to a veterans' organization, it wouldn't be a Finnish one.

Maybe I just don't understand what's going on, but it seems to me that at some point, collecting for disabled veterans should stop, when there aren't any disabled veterans anymore.

[Pursuivant]

The army guys and the others collect for the top organization, theres actually a couple associations http://www.sotiemmeveteraanit.fi/toimin ... sen-takana

Theres the "war orphans and widows" association and also those invalided in the war (be it civilian or military) so its still going to be a few years.

Of course, as anywhere the "organizations" themselves have grown big and quite lucrative ( Or do you expect something like Simon Weisenthal Centre to pack up and dissolve the last nazi is dead?) and theres been calls for them to actually start "divving out the dosh" as the veterans are old and in pretty bad shape - even those who weren't invalided.

Also to remember, even though Finland hasn't been "at war", there has been a stream of UN peacekeepers as well as Afghanistan troops who have had casualties and been wounded, so those guys shouldn't be forgotten.

[Rip]

However, I got to wondering, what are they actually collecting for? I mean, it is all well and good to have collections to help disabled veterans, but there have got to be like 10 living veterans left.

Somewhat more than 30 000 at the start of this year (and at this point even those that were in 1946 more fit than I am now are frail). The number is going down pretty fast of course.: http://www.sotiemmeveteraanit.fi/vetera ... -2009-2025

I suppose a lot of people do it for the patriotism of it all, but when you come down to it, my country fought on the OTHER SIDE of that a particular war (remembering that Finland was actually a German ally; it is sort of de-emphasized the way Finns tend to tell the story), and some of my family members didn't come back, so while I suppose suffering is suffering, if I were to give to a veterans' organization, it wouldn't be a Finnish one.

OK, I understand, contribution is of course quite voluntary. Yes, we fought with Hitler (for slightly over three years). Your people slightly longer with Stalin (with about same level ideological enthusiasm). Moral point - I am not sure.

I am happy of course that USA did take part, as it kept democratic form of government in at least part of the Europe. With even a benefit of hindsight it is not clear to me that Finland had a better choice in the situation it was. If we hadn't fought then presumably the Cold War front line would have been at least bit more to west from were it was even in the south. You shed a fair amount of blood even in that war.

[foca]

I suppose a lot of people do it for the patriotism of it all, but when you come down to it, my country fought on the OTHER SIDE of that a particular war (remembering that Finland was actually a German ally; it is sort of de-emphasized the way Finns tend to tell the story), and some of my family members didn't come back, so while I suppose suffering is suffering, if I were to give to a veterans' organization, it wouldn't be a Finnish one.

It is oversimplifying to say that Finland fought on the German side. They fought on their own side, and allied countries understood that. Finns (with some exceptions ) never shared nazi race theory or participated in organized genocide. Besides for a short period of time in 1944 they fought against Germans too. But this is not the reason why I donate to this cause. I believe that the Finnish veterans deserve to live in a better world, despite the fact that my father was on the other side of front line too.

[Oho]

...

Yeah, Finland kind of sort of wanted to fight on the side of and sought the support of the US and the UK but they would have none of that because they were too busy cosying up to Stalin who had plans to deport all Finns to Siberia for extermination via hard labor. As the government of Finland at the time was quite certain and quite rightly so that war with Soviet Union could only be avoided by surrendering without a fight and as Finland needed an ally it had no option left apart from Nazi Germany.

[Alex.Sm]

As Pursuivant mentioned there are also other veterans as well as from Afghanistan an so forth. I recall some 1-2 years back I read a case of a guy whom was wounded in Afghanistan and he had a lot of issues in getting medical care and so on. All those veterans should be helped and also the ones that lost someone during the war (widows, orphans and so forth).

I always donate when I see the soldiers in on the street collecting money. At least that's on thing I can do in respect for those people and because they fought and died for me to. I live in this country, I made my life and career here, and if Finland is such a great country (better then my former home country) then is because of them, is not because of this generation! The veterans and elder people whom fight and struggled, they survived during hard times and they made Finland such a great place! At least that's one things we can do now, help them! Respect!

[Oho]

As Pursuivant mentioned there are also other veterans as well as from Afghanistan an so forth.

...and in a few years time Finland will have all those Finnish war veterans from ISIS and Al Shabaab to rehabilitate and to re-integrate into the mainstream society. At least a couple of Social Democratic politicians have expressed grave concerns over the fact that only personnel that have served in Finnish armed forces in armed conflicts were the state of Finland participated in are by law eligible to veteran benefits. One of the reasons I hold SDP so dear.....

[Alex.Sm]

As Pursuivant mentioned there are also other veterans as well as from Afghanistan an so forth.

...and in a few years time Finland has all the Finnish war veterans from ISIS and Al Shabaab to rehabilitate and to re-integrate into the mainstream society. At least a couple of Social Democratic politicians have expressed grave concerns over the fact that only personnel that have served in Finnish armed forces in armed conflicts were the state of Finland participated in are eligible to veteran benefits. One of the reasons I hold SDP so dear.....

Of course I'm talking about the finnish army soldiers not a bunch of terrorists! But I know what you say there Do you have some sources where SDP members made that statement?

[Oho]

Of course I'm talking about the finnish army soldiers not a bunch of terrorists! But I know what you say there Do you have some sources where SDP members made that statement?

If you read Finnish:

http://www.eduskunta.fi/faktatmp/utatmp ... 13_p.shtml

If not for short synopsis.

Lead in describes legislation on war injuries. In particular it stresses how only injuries suffered while essentially in service of the state are considered.

The question proper then addresses how the law ought to be updated to also cover injuries and trauma inflicted on private citizens who enlisted in foreign conflicts without state sanction. At this time that would be organizations like Al Shabaab and Isis.

[Alex.Sm]

Of course I'm talking about the finnish army soldiers not a bunch of terrorists! But I know what you say there Do you have some sources where SDP members made that statement?

If you read Finnish:

http://www.eduskunta.fi/faktatmp/utatmp ... 13_p.shtml

If not for short synopsis.

Lead in describes legislation on war injuries. In particular it stresses how only injuries suffered while essentially in service of the state are considered.

The question proper then addresses how the law ought to be updated to also cover injuries and trauma inflicted on private citizens who enlisted in foreign conflicts without state sanction. At this time that would be organizations like Al Shabaab and Isis.

As much as it made me laugh, equally made me mad! How it's possible that some people are so @#$%'ed up? And here is why for next elections my vote goes tooo ... Perussuomalaiset . No @#$% way I want my taxes to be spent on ISIS and Al Shabaab "finnish citizens"!

[rinso]

If they get injured and then become Finnish citizens later, do they deserve treatment?

There still is Kela.
But for the extra help for war veterans; foreign service -> foreign problem.

[Godzilla]

If they get injured and then become Finnish citizens later, do they deserve treatment?

There still is Kela.
But for the extra help for war veterans; foreign service -> foreign problem.

If that's the criteria, then the veterans' associations can get along without my help; if they want to give to war victims in Finland generally, that's a worthy cause, I don't want to judge victims of one more as more worthy than another. But if it is a Finnish nationalist thing for ethnic Finnish people only, that's not me and does not deserve my support.

[Alex.Sm]

How about if someone is forced by law or coercion to fight in a service? For example, Israeli youths must by law serve in the armed forces and for some of them this means bombing Palestine, even if the idea disgusts them. If they get injured and then become Finnish citizens later, do they deserve treatment? Or do we tell them to go %&@% themselves because they were involved with something we didn't like? What about people who were told their families would be killed if they don't join and fight for some rebel cause? Is it still their own fault for being born in that place?

These are the very people who flee their countries to find a better life for their children. We might not want refugees, but most sane people can understand a person fleeing for their life.

It is short-sighted to begin making judgement calls on which Finnish citizens are "worthy" of being treated as Finnish citizens, and which ones should get treated as second-class. When a person builds a life here, wants to adapt to this culture, then satisfies Migri and the Finnish law to get citizenship, surely their past should not decide whether their wounds should be healed. We here in our cozy existences are not usually fit to judge or understand how some people have suffered.

[/quote]

This starts to be political stuff so let's not go anywhere there because this is not the purpose of this forum.

However if you flee for your live and come to Finland to make yourself a future and be safe, then why in the hell you are going back to fight? What we discuss here is about veteran benefits not medical care! As a citizen of this country or resident you get medical service and I'm sure any injured citizen will get medical benefits! What I don't agree is the veteran benefits for that person or his family! If you go back to fight you made your own decision, Finland for sure didn't sent you there so you cannot consider yourself a veteran of this country.

[Oho]

But if it is a Finnish nationalist thing for ethnic Finnish people only, that's not me and does not deserve my support.

No its for people who fought in Finnish armed forces regardless of nationality or ethnicity.

[Alex.Sm]

If they get injured and then become Finnish citizens later, do they deserve treatment?

There still is Kela.
But for the extra help for war veterans; foreign service -> foreign problem.

If that's the criteria, then the veterans' associations can get along without my help; if they want to give to war victims in Finland generally, that's a worthy cause, I don't want to judge victims of one more as more worthy than another. But if it is a Finnish nationalist thing for ethnic Finnish people only, that's not me and does not deserve my support.

I think somehow that the veteran or veteran benefits idea is not well understood!