war veteran contribution collectors

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Alex.Sm
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Re: war veteran contribution collectors

Post by Alex.Sm » Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:14 pm

Oho wrote:
Godzilla wrote: But if it is a Finnish nationalist thing for ethnic Finnish people only, that's not me and does not deserve my support.
No its for people who fought in Finnish armed forces regardless of nationality or ethnicity.
Exactly as Oho mentioned! A veteran is a person whom has served in Finland's armed forces! When you go to fight in a war in other country voluntarily it's your own decision and will, you go there by yourself and you are not under the Finland's armed service therefore you should not be entitled to veteran benefits in this country. Then probably you will get veteran benefits from that country (depends which side you go I guess).

What about if "finnish citizens" go abroad as a mercenary or commit war crimes in that specific location? Should they get veteran benefits also when they come back regardless of what they did? Would you like to pay them benefits from your taxes for the rest of their life?

And for @tummansininen: Have you seen what ISIS is doing in Iraq? Would you like to pay veteran benefits to any finnish citizen that is member of ISIS? If your answer is yes I will start questioning your logic!
Last edited by Alex.Sm on Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Re: war veteran contribution collectors

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Honest
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Re: war veteran contribution collectors

Post by Honest » Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:18 pm

we already send our troops to conflicts and wars which have nothing to do with Finland and are fought thousands of miles away and mostly to achieve geo-political goals of some bigger powers. If our politicians one day decide to make Finland a member of NATO, the number of injuries and deaths of Finnish soldiers are only going to increase while fighting illegal and unethical wars of other countries. This all wars, soldiers, injuries and death thing is a bit complicated issue.

Alex.Sm
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Re: war veteran contribution collectors

Post by Alex.Sm » Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:29 pm

Honest wrote:we already send our troops to conflicts and wars which have nothing to do with Finland and are fought thousands of miles away and mostly to achieve geo-political goals of some bigger powers. If our politicians one day decide to make Finland a member of NATO, the number of injuries and deaths of Finnish soldiers are only going to increase while fighting illegal and unethical wars of other countries. This all wars, soldiers, injuries and death thing is a bit complicated issue.
Honest: everybody has the right to an opinion and my opinion is that NATO is not an illegal organization, is a military alliance ... of course many things have happened during the NATO interventions and in every army you have some crazy people or someone that goes nuts and do some war crimes. The best way to protect from war is to not start a war at first!

Sometimes you have to go over the borders of your country when you have crazy people messing around ... the situation in Iraq with ISIS I will see soon an intervention there and can you imagine what will be the outcome if the international community will do nothing? What will happen if ISIS will get all Iraq and Syria ... have you seen the situation of minorities in Iraq? What will happen if Iraq cannot handle that themselves? So NATO and any other country should stay and watch how those poor people get killed just because they have other religion then ISIS?

Good or bad at least NATO respects quite much the international conventions ... but as I said you always have some crazy people in uniform.

Flossy1978
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Re: war veteran contribution collectors

Post by Flossy1978 » Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:46 pm

Finland is one of the world's top countries to live in if war were to break out in the area because of Finland's lack of involvement in international conflicts. So I don't think there are even that many Finnish army personnel out there in international conflicts. If you look at other countries like Australia which have even less to do with a lot of the conflicts than Finland and yet we have a whole lot more army personnel involved in said international conflicts percentage wise.

And I knew a Finn living in Finland who was engaged to a paramedic. If Finland is not in Nato, how was the fiance allowed to work as a paramedic for Nato overseas?

Alex.Sm
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Re: war veteran contribution collectors

Post by Alex.Sm » Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:08 pm

tummansininen wrote:
Alex.Sm wrote:This starts to be political stuff so let's not go anywhere there because this is not the purpose of this forum.

However if you flee for your live and come to Finland to make yourself a future and be safe, then why in the hell you are going back to fight? What we discuss here is about veteran benefits not medical care! As a citizen of this country or resident you get medical service and I'm sure any injured citizen will get medical benefits! What I don't agree is the veteran benefits for that person or his family! If you go back to fight you made your own decision, Finland for sure didn't sent you there so you cannot consider yourself a veteran of this country.
I said nothing about going "back" anywhere to fight.
Well then case closed, if people don't go back and fight, they are in Finland, then they will not suffer war related injuries, therefore they don't need veteran benefits, and they can all wait in line as everybody else at the local healthcare center when they are in need of medical services. I'm sure that will not be denied.

Rip
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Re: war veteran contribution collectors

Post by Rip » Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:35 am

tummansininen wrote: Having tidy paperwork, an in-demand career, being lucky enough to have been born in a "good"country, or having a Finnish spouse, these are not the only way we immigrants come here... it is not always black and white on whether Finland should help people
They would not be entitled (if they had gained residence permit/citizenship) to medical care based on other laws. They would not be Finnish veterans though, veterans that had been sent (sent, even if the more modern ones are voluntary while the older ones did not need to be) to war by the elected leadership of this country and towards whom this country therefore has a special responsibility.

Alex.Sm
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Re: war veteran contribution collectors

Post by Alex.Sm » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:54 am

tummansininen wrote:Having tidy paperwork, an in-demand career, being lucky enough to have been born in a "good"country, or having a Finnish spouse, these are not the only way we immigrants come here...
But one having tidy paperwork, career or luck doesn't mean is his fault because the world is @#$%'ed up! Finland cannot help and save the whole world! No matter how good this country will do to foreigners it's us the foreigners that destroy this country, and it's us foreigners that scream out loud "WE WANT MORE" accuse and throw the race card! Remember the two finnish aid workers shot in Afghanistan 3 weeks ago? That case is a perfect candidate for "no good deed goes unpunished"!

If you move here from any civilized, safe EU country you should be very happy in Finland because this country is better then any EU country ... but if you come here from a war zone country you should find this country as HEAVEN on earth, be happy and make yourself a future.

There are a lot of atrocities happening all over the world all the time because that's the world we live in and it's @#$%'ed up!
tummansininen wrote:Bear in mind, this is hardly a huge and expensive problem in Finland. We have far bigger fish to fry if we're concerned about where taxpayer dollars end up and far better demons to pursue for leeching off the Finnish euro.
Do you have a statistic of how much it costs? Any financial information? Do you have any information of illegal public money spending or incorrect handling?

Let me remind you one thing: At the beginning of the year, the government came public announcing the cuts to unemployment benefits, to child welfare, to the sick, to pensioners etc. Few billions in savings ... same month march I read a big article: "Finland grants EUR 44 million in aid for the world’s humanitarian crises" http://formin.finland.fi/public/default ... culture=en ... well my question then? WTF? Are we saving or not? In my head was the same question as when I was a kid in school when the biology teacher was telling us about evolution and so forth and the next hour at the religion class the priest was telling that we come from Adman and Eve. Who is right and whom should I believe? ... was the question in my head!

So same here: Are we saving or not? Do we have money or we don't! Because if the prime-minister comes and tell we are in deep issues and we need to save ... it's quite logic to me that we should not give money to the world! But that's it when you get the wrong people in some key positions!

Soooo economics and saving the world believe me are not decided on this forum.

Honest
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Re: war veteran contribution collectors

Post by Honest » Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:31 am

There are two ways to look at the aid money. A good person (nation) doesn't stop helping others even if he/it becomes a little poorer. And a bit more critical point of view is that aid is an indirect investment. Richer countries get a lot more back than what they give. Can't and don't want to go in details here.

Upphew
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Re: war veteran contribution collectors

Post by Upphew » Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:00 am

Alex.Sm wrote:Finland cannot help and save the whole world!
Agreed wholeheartedly!
Alex.Sm wrote:it's us foreigners that scream out loud "WE WANT MORE" accuse and throw the race card!
There are some who do that, but mostly I'd brush it under the blanket of "we want it like home". Not necessarily cheaper, but at least the aim isn't solely to leech as much as possible.
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Oho
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Re: war veteran contribution collectors

Post by Oho » Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:02 am

tummansininen wrote: Having tidy paperwork, an in-demand career, being lucky enough to have been born in a "good"country, or having a Finnish spouse, these are not the only way we immigrants come here...
Again the, well, silly issue I unwittingly raised was not about people seeking refuge or protection in Finland. It was about Finnish nationals, native or naturalized, who enlist for service in foreign conflicts without state sanction. Recently when Finns did just that, enlisted as mercenaries in foreign conflicts, instead of worrying about their well being, leftist politicians demanded and got inquiries toward pressing criminal charges on war crimes against them. For some reason now, well not hard to guess what that reason might be, instead of concerning themselves with possible war crimes the very same leftist politicians are worried about the fact these people are not legally level pegging with WWII veterans. As a curious observation, when I was a kid, in the seventies, similar and in some cases the very same leftist politicians regarded all, and I mean all, Finnish WWII veterans as war criminals. I tell a lie, there were ethnic Finns fighting in the Red Army, these people where wholeheartedly considered heroes if not saints.
Last edited by Oho on Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Alex.Sm
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Re: war veteran contribution collectors

Post by Alex.Sm » Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:55 am

Honest wrote:There are two ways to look at the aid money. A good person (nation) doesn't stop helping others even if he/it becomes a little poorer. And a bit more critical point of view is that aid is an indirect investment. Richer countries get a lot more back than what they give. Can't and don't want to go in details here.
Currently Finland's debt is about 113 866 502 501 € and growing. That's more or less 58% of GDP. That means each and every one citizen has a debt of about 20.000 €. At an interest of ~90 € / second that means every new born kid has already the debt ...

I agree economics is a deep subject but one thing is sure those leftists they put the country with a foot in the grave. What's the deal here? Save the world and put your own people in debt or more exactly in deep !"#¤%?

A good nation takes care of it's own people and makes sure that the future of the nation is assured. A good nation doesn't cut child benefits and pensions because pensioners built the country and the kids are the future of the country. By cutting child benefits shows that the nation doesn't care about it's future! And if the nation is in trouble and has hard times, well they should take care first of it's own people and after help the others! Have you been flying right? What they say in the airplane: "in case of emergency put the oxygen mask first to yourself and then help the others" ... in other words if the nation/people have a good life they will be able to help the others!

Well that's just my opinion!
Last edited by Alex.Sm on Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Alex.Sm
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Re: war veteran contribution collectors

Post by Alex.Sm » Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:11 pm

Upphew wrote:There are some who do that, but mostly I'd brush it under the blanket of "we want it like home". Not necessarily cheaper, but at least the aim isn't solely to leech as much as possible.
If we want it like home why not make it simple and go back home? Am I missing something here? Wouldn't that be easier, faster and everybody will be happy?

Let me tell a joke: 2 good friends one was italian (Enzo) and the other french (Jean) they where living in Italy. The french guy was having hard times with italian language and he was not liking it. All the time he was complaining to his italian friend about the language ... until one day when Enzo told Jean:
- Enzo: Jean, would you like to speak french ?
- Jean: Ohhh-Laaaa-Laaaa biensur!
- Enzo: Would you like to study in french?
- Jean: Ouuuiii I WANT!
- Enzo: Would you like to get public services in french?
- Jean: Ouuuiii!!!
- Enzo: Would you like to see street names in french, and cars with french license plate?
- Jean: Ouuuiii!!!
- Enzo: Would you like women to speak french?
- Jean: Ohhhlaaa biensur!
- Enzo: Then go back to France!

P.S. No offense french or italians, was just a joke :)

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Oombongo
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Re: war veteran contribution collectors

Post by Oombongo » Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:11 pm

I wonder what kind of treatment a war vet gets if he loses his arm or leg for the country?
Will he get a proper treatment throughout his life, or will he face, you know, "government cutbacks"
what about his career? will he face a dire financial situation, won't be able to get a well-paid job due to missing body part, and end up being a bottom feeder of the society?

Decided to ask this question as we know things are not going very well for EU zone, and governments (aka already rich politicians) are cutting back on services.
Last edited by Oombongo on Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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bm50
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Re: war veteran contribution collectors

Post by bm50 » Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:42 pm

I'm interested to know what are the casualty figures for the Finnish armed forces? Example in Afghanistan?

Rip
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Re: war veteran contribution collectors

Post by Rip » Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:14 pm

bm50 wrote:I'm interested to know what are the casualty figures for the Finnish armed forces? Example in Afghanistan?
Two I think in Afghanistan. (one in 2007 and one in 2011 - it is not a very large force and not really looking for enemies to fight). Leading non-natural causes of death for servicemen in Finland must be traffic accidents and suicides. Air force pilots must have the clearly highest peace time mortality rate.


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