The importance of Finnish SSN for banks and e-asiointi

[faronel]

THE ISSUE IS RESOLVED, CASE IS CLOSED. INFORMATION IS BELOW. LOOK AT THE DESCRIPTION, 3rd page

EDIT: TItle change for future references.

Hey,

The case is as follows:

I am a client at Nordea. I have a stable legal income (the town of my residence is my employer), I have Nordea's debit card (Visa Electron) with the option of making online purchases (i.e. CVV2 code), and, as of recent, I have "a basic internet banking option". Both, becoming a client at Nordea and receiving their debit card right away, and getting internet banking account, was done by using my Estonian citizenship passport.

Later, I tried to buy some train tickets at VR.fi and run into the following problem: I insert my debit card details, the site instantly refers me to Nordea's internet banking login page, so I could authorize my card (additional protection, cool). Though, when I try to log in with my internet banking account, it says:
"Tunnistautuminen ei ole mahdollista tällä sopimuksella (V2360M26)"

I go to the bank's local office for the inquiry. The bank clerk explains to me: "You have a basic internet banking option which simply means that you can see your transactions, pay bills etc but you cannot use your debit card for internet purchases nor you can log in into different public e-services (KELA, VERO etc)." The reason for that, as the bank clerk claimed, is that those other instances (VERO, KELA etc) require a bank client to have a Finnish identification document.

Ok, maybe. It felt strange but I agreed then. Felt strange because I can become a client at their bank, I can get basic e-banking account (thus, making money transfers online) by using my Estonian passport. But I cannot use my Estonian passport to expand the services a little? Anyway, left home and decided to inquire the issue further. I went to KELA, VERO and TE-toimisto local branches and asked them this simple question: "Do you require local banks to impose a rule on their clients that they need to have a Finnish identification document so they log in with their bank accounts into your e-services?" At KELA and VERO, I received an instant "No" answer, while getting a reference to "bank's own policies". At TE-toimisto, the person serving me did not know the answer, at first saying "Yes?" (I guess, just to protect the Finnish bureaucracy?) but when I asked that person to show me this rule (law), the answer was changed to a firm "No, we don't have this rule."

Also, in a while, this happened, That case is slightly different since the person was trying to get the general e-banking account but the idea can be extended at the level of my case: that person wanted to expand his bank services (from simple banking to e-banking) just like I want to expand my bank services (from simple e-banking to full e-banking).

I haven't yet been to the bank after all that information collected but I am aiming to go soon. I wanted to hear someone's opinion from another perspective as well. I am getting this right that this "policy" the bank clerk was aiming at is discriminative or the clerk was simply incompetent by not knowing whether their policy applies in my case at all?

[Upphew]

Hey,

The case is as follows:

I am a client at Nordea. I have a stable legal income (the town of my residence is my employer), I have Nordea's debit card (Visa Electron) with the option of making online purchases (i.e. CVV2 code), and, as of recent, I have "a basic internet banking option". Both, becoming a client at Nordea and receiving their debit card right away, and getting internet banking account, was done by using my Estonian citizenship passport.

Later, I tried to buy some train tickets at VR.fi and run into the following problem: I insert my debit card details, the site instantly refers me to Nordea's internet banking login page, so I could authorize my card (additional protection, cool). Though, when I try to log in with my internet banking account, it says:
"Tunnistautuminen ei ole mahdollista tällä sopimuksella (V2360M26)"

I go to the bank's local office for the inquiry. The bank clerk explains to me: "You have a basic internet banking option which simply means that you can see your transactions, pay bills etc but you cannot use your debit card for internet purchases nor you can log in into different public e-services (KELA, VERO etc)." The reason for that, as the bank clerk claimed, is that those other instances (VERO, KELA etc) require a bank client to have a Finnish identification document.

Ok, maybe. It felt strange but I agreed then. Felt strange because I can become a client at their bank, I can get basic e-banking account (thus, making money transfers online) by using my Estonian passport. But I cannot use my Estonian passport to expand the services a little? Anyway, left home and decided to inquire the issue further. I went to KELA, VERO and TE-toimisto local branches and asked them this simple question: "Do you require local banks to impose a rule on their clients that they need to have a Finnish identification document so they log in with their bank accounts into your e-services?" At KELA and VERO, I received an instant "No" answer, while getting a reference to "bank's own policies". At TE-toimisto, the person serving me did not know the answer, at first saying "Yes?" (I guess, just to protect the Finnish bureaucracy?) but when I asked that person to show me this rule (law), the answer was changed to a firm "No, we don't have this rule."

Also, in a while, this happened, That case is slightly different since the person was trying to get the general e-banking account but the idea can be extended at the level of my case: that person wanted to expand his bank services (from simple banking to e-banking) just like I want to expand my bank services (from simple e-banking to full e-banking).

I haven't yet been to the bank after all that information collected but I am aiming to go soon. I wanted to hear someone's opinion from another perspective as well. I am getting this right that this "policy" the bank clerk was aiming at is discriminative or the clerk was simply incompetent by not knowing whether their policy applies in my case at all?

That VR thing is weird. It talks about identification, not payment. Were you trying to get some subsided tickets? You could, or rather should, contact also VR. Wouldn't be first time that their systems had some hiccups.

[faronel]

I actually tried to do the same at matkahuolto for full price tickets and trying to log in into VERO and KELA. Same error at the Nordea's e-bank page to which I am redirected from the former sites. Also, full price tickets at VR.
The identification you are referring to is the requirement from the bank's side when I try to use my debit card as a payment method (does not authorize it while trying to log in into my e-bank account). VR and Matkahuolto allow the transaction, it is the bank's side that is preventing me from finishing my payment by preventing my authorization from debit card to e-bank login. Hence, we are returning back to the bank's policy.

[Alex.Sm]

Hey,

The case is as follows:

I am a client at Nordea. I have a stable legal income (the town of my residence is my employer), I have Nordea's debit card (Visa Electron) with the option of making online purchases (i.e. CVV2 code), and, as of recent, I have "a basic internet banking option". Both, becoming a client at Nordea and receiving their debit card right away, and getting internet banking account, was done by using my Estonian citizenship passport.

Later, I tried to buy some train tickets at VR.fi and run into the following problem: I insert my debit card details, the site instantly refers me to Nordea's internet banking login page, so I could authorize my card (additional protection, cool). Though, when I try to log in with my internet banking account, it says:
"Tunnistautuminen ei ole mahdollista tällä sopimuksella (V2360M26)"

I go to the bank's local office for the inquiry. The bank clerk explains to me: "You have a basic internet banking option which simply means that you can see your transactions, pay bills etc but you cannot use your debit card for internet purchases nor you can log in into different public e-services (KELA, VERO etc)." The reason for that, as the bank clerk claimed, is that those other instances (VERO, KELA etc) require a bank client to have a Finnish identification document.

Ok, maybe. It felt strange but I agreed then. Felt strange because I can become a client at their bank, I can get basic e-banking account (thus, making money transfers online) by using my Estonian passport. But I cannot use my Estonian passport to expand the services a little? Anyway, left home and decided to inquire the issue further. I went to KELA, VERO and TE-toimisto local branches and asked them this simple question: "Do you require local banks to impose a rule on their clients that they need to have a Finnish identification document so they log in with their bank accounts into your e-services?" At KELA and VERO, I received an instant "No" answer, while getting a reference to "bank's own policies". At TE-toimisto, the person serving me did not know the answer, at first saying "Yes?" (I guess, just to protect the Finnish bureaucracy?) but when I asked that person to show me this rule (law), the answer was changed to a firm "No, we don't have this rule."

Also, in a while, this happened, That case is slightly different since the person was trying to get the general e-banking account but the idea can be extended at the level of my case: that person wanted to expand his bank services (from simple banking to e-banking) just like I want to expand my bank services (from simple e-banking to full e-banking).

I haven't yet been to the bank after all that information collected but I am aiming to go soon. I wanted to hear someone's opinion from another perspective as well. I am getting this right that this "policy" the bank clerk was aiming at is discriminative or the clerk was simply incompetent by not knowing whether their policy applies in my case at all?

You are lucky that the system at least recognized you and your bank by the card number!

[faronel]

It is an option and will do so, if Nordea refuses me after my second attempt. I am just curious if my case makes sense here or I am delusional in claiming full internet banking rights?

[Alex.Sm]

Since KELA talked to you I presume you have a henkilötunnus and that the bank also has it on their records.

I am just disgusted at the bank's reasoning - they are lying. The sales website (ie VR) displays something like, "We're sending the following info to your bank for confirmation that you are who you say you are (shows you your name and info on the screen)". Then you put in your passnumbers, hit the send button, and the bank's system just sends a Yes or a No back to VR that your info matches what's on their records, at which point the transaction goes ahead.

Demand to know why their system won't follow this system this since they have viewed your passport and trusted it enough to open an account for you. There is no risk to the bank, it's YOUR money at risk when using the card online, so "security" is not a valid reason. Ask why they allow your card to be used on foreign websites with no login procedure at all.

@tummansininen you are disgusted about many things in Finland.

The thing is sometimes some rules and policies make our foreigner life difficult. And if it's a policy or rule of a specific bank you don't have to comply if you don't like it! There are other banks also on the market! It's not always discrimination or racism or I don't know what! It's just a policy!

Let me tell you one thing: I moved to Finland 2008, opened an account where I was getting my salary, I have been working since the second week after my move here continuously, monthly salary and so on. Guess what I had a bank account at OP, where I was getting my salary and had a visa electron card, with internet bank services activated (full service no limitation on the internet service). 1 year later I applied for credit card and I couldn't get one they told me I have to be in Finland 3 years before I can get one. Nevertheless I got a credit card from Sampo (Danske now) right away when I opened an account without even getting my salary to Danske. And in 2010 we bought an apartment with my wife and I could have get from OP 300.000 € loan maxium (with my wife). Sooo I couldn't get a credit card let's say with 1000 € limit but I got a loan to buy apartment which sounds ridiculous but that's their rule and policy. if you are not happy move to other bank!

And it makes sens! Make sens that they don't trust foreigners ... imagine that anybody from EU could come here with passport and get credit card, full internet service, loans and stuff like that ... and disappear! No I don't want my bank to give credit cards and services to somebody that just moved here yesterday just like that because he demands it with his EU passport! No I don't because if there will be problems, I will have problems! Stay here, few years, prove you are safe and you will get full services! I didn't get full services when I arrived here and that was fine for me! I managed, I survived it and was not disgusting! Or otherwise you could just move back home and get full services in your home country right? Riiiiiiight!

[Alex.Sm]

Demand to know why their system won't follow this system this since they have viewed your passport and trusted it enough to open an account for you. There is no risk to the bank, it's YOUR money at risk when using the card online, so "security" is not a valid reason. Ask why they allow your card to be used on foreign websites with no login procedure at all.

Sooooo you are telling me, that if I go to China and my credit card gets skimmed when I pay in a restaurant that money are lost? Are you sure? You get that money back dear are insured! So basically I can go to China skim my credit-card, make 50/50 with the dude and then get my money back from the credit-card because is insured! Yes it's call fraud and is the bank and credit card company that will loose money not you!

[Alex.Sm]

opened an account where I was getting my salary

your employer doesn't dictate your bank, you get salary in any bank you open the account. The contrasting thing is you need bank account first to get the salary, not the salary to open bank account.

Sorry my bad! I'm not native english speaker ... what I meant was that "I opened a bank account to a bank of my choice, and in that account I was getting my salary" or something like that so yes was not the work that told me "open account to this bank"! Actually I needed the work contract , the SSN and passport to open the bank account

[Alex.Sm]

And in 2010 we bought an apartment with my wife and I could have get from OP 300.000 € loan maxium (with my wife). Sooo I couldn't get a credit card let's say with 1000 € limit but I got a loan to buy apartment which sounds ridiculous but that's their rule and policy.

well the case is clear here, the bank trusted your wife not you

Well we were not married during that time, just BF/GF. However without my income she could have get much less loan, therefore my income contributed to secure that loan and prove that we will be able to pay it. However that's true because probably I will have not get the loan alone. She was assuring them I am trustworthy

[faronel]

About Finnish Social Security Number and its tie to a Finnish ID. It just does not make sense that the bank would go all the way with granting me my rights (opening an account, giving a debit card, allowing me using their e-banking with options of making money transfers in and outside Finland) by accepting my Estonian ID but then for an additional tick in the software (connecting debit card to e-banking, making it a credit card; allowing access to e-services) I need a Finnish ID with my picture on it and Finnish SSN. The rights I am denied of are not in proportion to the liability of my potential actions if I am granted these rights in comparison what I can do with rights I am already granted.

But have you read the link I pasted here, in my first post? The Discrimination Board punished S-bank for refusing opening an e-bank account for an Estonian citizen when he used his Estonian citizenship passport. The Discrimination Board concluded that even if bank has a policy regarding the refusal procedure, the procedure is against the Yhdenvertaisuuslaki § 6. And that decision was published by the Discrimination Board on 22th of July, this year. I think it is a good precedent for my case, if you can fit the circumstances in my idea.

[Alex.Sm]

About Finnish Social Security Number and its tie to a Finnish ID. It just does not make sense that the bank would go all the way with granting me my rights (opening an account, giving a debit card, allowing me using their e-banking with options of making money transfers in and outside Finland) by accepting my Estonian ID but then for an additional tick in the software (connecting debit card to e-banking, making it a credit card; allowing access to e-services) I need a Finnish ID with my picture on it and Finnish SSN. The rights I am denied of are not in proportion to the liability of my potential actions if I am granted these rights in comparison what I can do with rights I am already granted.

But have you read the link I pasted here, in my first post? The Discrimination Board punished S-bank for refusing opening an e-bank account for an Estonian citizen when he used his Estonian citizenship passport. The Discrimination Board concluded that even if bank has a policy regarding the refusal procedure, the procedure is against the Yhdenvertaisuuslaki § 6. And that decision was published by the Discrimination Board on 22th of July, this year. I think it is a good precedent for my case, if you can fit the circumstances in my idea.

Maybe things have changed since 2008 when I moved ... I didn't get anything without working contract! Not even the travel card from HSL without the SSN. Actually I got the card but I was paying full price for Helsinki at that time was 70 something euro. Because they said that the 40 € something card is for Helsinki residents only. And I say: "I live in Helsinki", they told: "Do you have SSN? Henkilötunnus? " I answered: "No Here is my EU passport". They replied: "Sorry can't give you the 40€ card but you can get the 70 something € one". I was like "Jackpot. Thanks a lot for nothing!"

So yes the flow was like this:

No work contract -> I didn't get anything else

Work Contract -> SSN -> ID Card from police, bank account, Kela card, travel card with 40 something € /month instead of 70 something ... etc etc etc

So you my friend just with passport got all of that ? Definitely rules have changed!

I should have come also on this forum and complain: "I'm so disgusted about HKL, about bank, about Finland, about Kela, because me foreigner came here and I DEMANDED everything and got nothing". I should have pull the race card and the discrimination one right away!

But instead I complied with the rules/policies whatever and managed so far even if "my DEMANDS where not respected by those racist finns"

[Alex.Sm]

About Finnish Social Security Number and its tie to a Finnish ID. It just does not make sense that the bank would go all the way with granting me my rights (opening an account, giving a debit card, allowing me using their e-banking with options of making money transfers in and outside Finland) by accepting my Estonian ID but then for an additional tick in the software (connecting debit card to e-banking, making it a credit card; allowing access to e-services) I need a Finnish ID with my picture on it and Finnish SSN. The rights I am denied of are not in proportion to the liability of my potential actions if I am granted these rights in comparison what I can do with rights I am already granted.

But have you read the link I pasted here, in my first post? The Discrimination Board punished S-bank for refusing opening an e-bank account for an Estonian citizen when he used his Estonian citizenship passport. The Discrimination Board concluded that even if bank has a policy regarding the refusal procedure, the procedure is against the Yhdenvertaisuuslaki § 6. And that decision was published by the Discrimination Board on 22th of July, this year. I think it is a good precedent for my case, if you can fit the circumstances in my idea.

As roger_roger mentioned above, all in this country works around SSN when it comes to authentication and authorization in a system using bank account. So go and get one, visit the bank make the changes and probably you will get rid of this issue. I also recommend a finnish ID card from police. It cost's like ~40 € and when you go to bank and show the finnish ID card instead of Estonian passport you will look cool!

[Alex.Sm]

@tummansininen you are disgusted about many things in Finland.

The thing is sometimes some rules and policies make our foreigner life difficult. And if it's a policy or rule of a specific bank you don't have to comply if you don't like it! There are other banks also on the market! It's not always discrimination or racism or I don't know what! It's just a policy!

blah blah blah

Wrong I can log into Kela with my OP bank info and opened that bank account without Finnish ID. As they told the OP that the reason is a lack of Finnish ID, it is discrimination against him for being Estonian. Which according to EU stuffs, is not necessarily acceptable. And since I explained why their explanation is wrong, they should either just say it's their policy or fix it, not claim it's someone else's fault (ie hinting at Kela, Vero etc being to blame). It's not just a policy when they blame something else and pretend they're powerless.

By the way, credit card vs debit card is a very different situation if someone fraudulently uses it. The OP in this thread did not try to get credit or ask the bank to hand him bank money and didn't indicate that he expected it. Debit and Credit are not comparable. If someone empties your debit account in Finland through a Finnish website like VR, then the bank won't give you a cent so the bank doesn't need to worry about it as a risk.

I do understand just voting with your feet (going to a new bank) when you are unhappy with a service. But sometimes people need to stand up for what's right when they have been treated wrongly, especially by greedy companies like banks. I agree with you faronel, I think they have behaved badly and need to be forced to do the right thing here. It's your money and they're making a profit on it, you are the customer and in the right.

So you say you don't have SSN at all? And you live here how? Do you work? Are you millionaire? Are you refugee? Do you pay taxes if you work? How do you exist in papers? What's your status? Because if you live here but you don't have SSN, that means you don't work, and you don't pay taxes ... that means you are probably rich and just decided to move here! You went to bank with a bag of cash and you told them you need an account because you expect a truck to come full with cash. Bank happy, opened you account. And maybe because you are from EU, then you qualify also for Kela services soo that's how you can log in to Kela ... Interesting! Do you think that everybody whom comes here has a truck full of cash?

[Alex.Sm]

I do understand just voting with your feet (going to a new bank) when you are unhappy with a service. But sometimes people need to stand up for what's right when they have been treated wrongly, especially by greedy companies like banks. I agree with you faronel, I think they have behaved badly and need to be forced to do the right thing here. It's your money and they're making a profit on it, you are the customer and in the right.

Hey you know what, I agree banks are evil! You pay them for letting them use your money and much more! If a bank does bad business and goes bankrupt, the customers are suffering and then the government will inject peoples taxes into that bank to save it otherwise there will be economical issues. Basically no matter what will happen, customer will loose, bank will win.

But now thinking from the other-point of view: Life is short and we live once! In some parts of the world people are dying of wars, hunger, diseases, and so on ... and I am here complaining I cannot pay a train ticket from my desk located in the comfort of my home in a safe country because the bank wants/needs maybe the SSN or not who cares?. So is it so hard to get the SSN and give it to the bank? Well that requires to move your but from the comfortable office chair from your home located in the safe country and go to Maistraatti and ask for SSN and then go to bank and make the changes! Do you imagine all that work end effort and the calories consumed during all that projectt? That's pure torture!

So now, what should I do? Do the effort, get the SSN, give it to the bank and then be able to pay online using the internet services? Or should I scream out loud how discriminated I am and fight the system and maybe become a martyr and maybe even get the right to spend my money online and prove that the bank had a stupid rule against honest citizens and the bank was wrong and I was right and I won .... and !"#¤% like that? NO THANKS! I will chose the easiest way get the SSN and give it to the bank! With all millions of rules, policies, and laws about what I can do and what I cannot do, believe me I would not give a damn that the bank will need my SSN or not! Move my but, get the SSN and give it to them! Problem solved! case closed! Both parties happy! This really is not a subject that will make my blood boil because somehow maybe I was discriminated by the bank ... uuuu such an abuse!

@tummansininen: if you complain about this and you think that this is a big deal, definitely you haven't faced real issues or problems, or seen any of them not face them!

[Arif Shah]

Same thing happened to me...simply went to maistrati office, they gave me some identification form..showed it to bank and it was fixed..can now use it for vero, kela or anywhere..earlier could not do it