Car fraud

[ebrahim99]

Hi,

I have bought a car from one Finnish man 15 days ago. Before I paid him the price we went Katsastus together and I changed the ownership and after that I have transferred the amount to his account.

After 10 days the police came to my home and they took the car and all the documents(ownership & registration paper). There was a man with the police the one who claims ownership of the car. He had also ownership paper with him.
But the ownership paper has filled with the details of the one who sold the car to me.The person said that he was agreed to sell the car to the one he sold the car to me.

I have given my word to the investigator and now I'm waiting for court hearing.

Either any one who knows or happens to him/her such kind of case ?
How could it be the car has two ownership paper in different people's hand?
How is it possible the 2nd person get the car before he paid the money to the 1st owner and where he gets the ownership document?
who made fraud here in this case?
Please your recommendation and advice what to do to get my car/money back?

Thanks all in advance for your support and advice:)

[rinso]

I understand that the first owner wanted to sell the car to the second owner, but the deal was never finished. (no money paid)
The second owner copied the papers and put his name on them and sold the car to you.
Now the first owner claims his car back.

Legally the first owner still own the car.
You are between a rock and a hard place. You lost the car and the money and apart from trying to get the money back from the second owner, there is nothing you can do.
And even worse, if the police suspect you knew the deal was fishy, they can see you as a suspect in the fraud.

If there was enough money involved (i.e. not a < € 1000,- car) it is probably wise to get a lawyer.

[cors187]

Is there a link to a database someone can post that can show :search: registration number/owner details.
I guess its a pertinent tool for buying cars here.

[aguy]

I recently bought a second hand car from a private person and what I did, I went to https://www.autorekisteri.fi/, entered the car plate number, paid 7€ to get all the information and then you get a pdf file with all the info of the car, whom owns it, when was registered, insurance history and stuff like that. I got all owners information, addresses, found where they work, phone numbers details (addresses matched the ones in the autorekisteri report). Once I decided that everything is legit, I started the procedure! That's a well spent 7€ and 10 minutes of my time to find the needed information and get the piece of mind!

[Honest]

Isn't there any fault of Katsastus that they changed the ownership of a car to a new person without the consent of the owner (real owner)? Are they not required to check their systems before transferring ownerships? I mean OP has an ownership paper from the authorities.

[ebrahim99]

@FloydFin, The car is not returned to the first 'owner'. its in police hand. Why the car has to return to the first owner? he already gives the car to the second owner whether he received full amount or partial or non. Isn't he make sure to get the fully amount before he transfer ownership and gave away the car to the second person?

I had no idea about the first and second owners deals. I have just bought the car legally: I have dealt with the second owner because in my point of view he had legal owner, I have changed the owner ship from the second person, I have paid the full amount tohim, I have made insurance for the car. What else should i do when i buy the car? how do I know the first owner and the second owner deal wasn't finished?

[ebrahim99]

@rinso if the first owner still didnt got his money why he gave the key to the second owner?

[Pursuivant]

Because he stupid.

Your situation looks good as you were in good faith, but the law is pretty dodgy on stolen property.

[Honest]

I think in this situation first owner doesn't have any right on the car. His case is more about getting money from the second owner (non-payment) . He signed the papers and handed over the key as well so deal was finalised. I don't understand why police should have taken cat from the OP. He bought the car from a legal owner.

For people who are saying that you should have checked from the car database, it would not have made any difference. The second person had all the documents to register car to his name so database would anyway show him as the owner.

There might be some other issues but apparently I don't see any reason to confiscate the car.

[Honest]

Because he stupid.

Your situation looks good as you were in good faith, but the law is pretty dodgy on stolen property.

It's not stolen, it's with all the documentation. So there is no reason for the buyer to suspect anything. And the OP even went to katsastus with the owner, which is already one step farther than most of the buyers would do.

[ebrahim99]

Thanks @honest! in addition to all these, I have transferred the amount through bank to the second owner.
I gave the bank transaction which shows the transferred amount to the investigator.

[rinso]

I had no idea about the first and second owners deals. I have just bought the car legally: I have dealt with the second owner because in my point of view he had legal owner, I have changed the owner ship from the second person, I have paid the full amount tohim, I have made insurance for the car. What else should i do when i buy the car? how do I know the first owner and the second owner deal wasn't finished?

You assume the second owner was the rightful owner. But since the police confiscated the car and the papers there is some doubt about it. If in some stage the second owner illegally manipulated the process the first owner still is the rightful owner. That you handled in good faith doesn't change the ownership.
Don't get your hopes up because you did nothing wrong. The law favors the original owner. (even if he acted stupidly)
As I said before, if a lot of money is involved, get some legal advice.

[aguy]

I think in this situation first owner doesn't have any right on the car. His case is more about getting money from the second owner (non-payment) . He signed the papers and handed over the key as well so deal was finalised. I don't understand why police should have taken cat from the OP. He bought the car from a legal owner.

For people who are saying that you should have checked from the car database, it would not have made any difference. The second person had all the documents to register car to his name so database would anyway show him as the owner.

There might be some other issues but apparently I don't see any reason to confiscate the car.

If you check the car history, from the records you can see what happened with the ownership, so if you buy a car today and you see that 7 days ago the ownership already changed from person X to person Z should blink some warning light in your head, there was a sell between person X and person Z and very quick after that person Z tries to resell it so either might be something wrong with the car (technical problems) or the person Z does that for a living (buys and sells cars). However I don't know what was the real situation there, but if mister Z was owning the car 100% then the sell was correct and is not the OP's fault for what person X and person Z did, however if the car is the object of a dispute between the previous 2 owners, the police acted correctly and the court can decide what happens with the car. If the second owner was not the real owner of the car then there is a problem because the OP got scammed, buying a car from someone that doesn't owns it and the car database information could have helped you out.

OP: I guess you have the car license plate number right? Check it out and see what the service tell you related to ownership of the car. Costs 7€.

[cors187]

I think in this situation first owner doesn't have any right on the car. His case is more about getting money from the second owner (non-payment) . He signed the papers and handed over the key as well so deal was finalised. I don't understand why police should have taken cat from the OP. He bought the car from a legal owner.

For people who are saying that you should have checked from the car database, it would not have made any difference. The second person had all the documents to register car to his name so database would anyway show him as the owner.

There might be some other issues but apparently I don't see any reason to confiscate the car.

I think you have a point, but it might be a contract detail included.
Owner 1 gives car and keys and signs paper, owner 2 signs contract to pay owner 1 in 7 days.Something like that
The police must have extra info to work from to take the car, but did they really give to owner 1 or they just used owner 1 to confirm the car and take it to the holding station.

[AldenG]

The classic professional scam is that owner 1 and owner 2 are in on it together, and owner 2 can't be found.

That gets harder to pull off when there's a bank transfer involved, though. And in a country with high tracking like Finland.