Swedish

[foca]

You don't need a bridge to English when you already have to learn it in school even before you start to learn this "bridge".

Learning Swedish as a compulsory subject is like living in the past. Finland has moved ahead from being a Swedish colony. Nobody is asking to distort the history by ignoring the role Swedish has played here. But do you keep a dead cow at home forever because it used to be so useful for your family in its prime time?

So those finnsh swedes who still live in Finland are a dead cow for you?
I said that Swedish is bridge between German and English meaning that if one learns or knows English and learns Swedish it makes much easier to learn German (or any other Germanic language).

[Honest]

So those finnsh swedes who still live in Finland are a dead cow for you?
.

Is this topic about allowing Finnish Swedes to live in Finland or to force their language on every single Finn? Unfortunately their language has no real value for others in today's world. It is important for them just like any other language in the world to people who speak that language but it's not worth forcing it on others. It's a dead cow for Finland.

[Rip]

I said that Swedish is bridge between German and English meaning that if one learns or knows English and learns Swedish it makes much easier to learn German (or any other Germanic language).

You'll hard time convincing me that most sensible way of learning German would not be by studying German, not Swedish.

Logic is about equally good as suggesting immigrants to Finland to study Estonian in order to learn Finnish.

[foca]

I said that Swedish is bridge between German and English meaning that if one learns or knows English and learns Swedish it makes much easier to learn German (or any other Germanic language).

You'll hard time convincing me that most sensible way of learning German would not be by studying German, not Swedish.

Logic is about equally good as suggesting immigrants to Finland to study Estonian in order to learn Finnish.

Never said it is a way to learn german , or it is the most sensible way to learn german..... please carefully read what I wrote.....

Swedish obviously is a good bridge between German and English , and obviously knowledge of it allows for deeper understanding of any Germanic language.

[Honest]

Looking at most of the recent longer threads I would just like to add that sometimes others can also be right.

[Rip]

Never said it is a way to learn german , or it is the most sensible way to learn german..... please carefully read what I wrote.....

I just thought it was better that, instead of me stating that what you wrote had no real relevance to the topic, you admitted it yourself. A statement without without any hard substance, often made in these kind of discussions when proponents of obligatory Swedish studies lack better arguments.

[foca]

Never said it is a way to learn german , or it is the most sensible way to learn german..... please carefully read what I wrote.....

I just thought it was better that, instead of me stating that what you wrote had no real relevance to the topic, you admitted it yourself. A statement without without any hard substance, often made in these kind of discussions when proponents of obligatory Swedish studies lack better arguments.

Arguments are numerous , you can check the earlier threads . I am just tired of repeating them...but some of them are (without further elaboration for the above mentioned reason):
- historical backgound
- roots of fennomans movement,
- bilingualism of finnish swedes
- unity of the nation
-position of finnish swedes during the war
- political development of the language question, etc...
And against all that - I just hear " swedish is not needed" , "children can learn something else", "let them coose themselves "... - these are not real arguments weighted against the unique situation that has been achieved in Finland . After all, if you let children choose , they will choose to sit at home and play video games......
-

[Rip]

So against your "roots of fennoman movement" practical considerations if the Swedish really is the most important or at least second most important foreign language or Finnish speaking kids to learn "aren't real arguments"?

Just when I thought the arguments for compulsory Swedish educations couldn't get any worse...


Pretty good list of (bad) arguments for compulsory Swedish:
http://www.sampoterho.net/?p=3489
(in Finnish)
including

2. Ruotsi ja ruotsin kieli ovat keskeinen osa historiaamme
– Kyllä, mutta historiaa opiskellaan historiantunneilla. Kielten opetuksen täytyy tähdätä tulevaisuuden tarpeisiin, ei menneisyyteen. Menneisyyteen ei voi työllistyä eikä lähteä edes turistimatkalle kieliosaamistaan hyödyntämään.

[FinnGuyHelsinki]

Arguments are numerous , you can check the earlier threads . I am just tired of repeating them...but some of them are (without further elaboration for the above mentioned reason):
- historical backgound
- roots of fennomans movement,
- bilingualism of finnish swedes
- unity of the nation
-position of finnish swedes during the war
- political development of the language question, etc...
And against all that - I just hear " swedish is not needed" , "children can learn something else", "let them coose themselves "... - these are not real arguments weighted against the unique situation that has been achieved in Finland . After all, if you let children choose , they will choose to sit at home and play video games......
-

So you just come up with imaginary counter-arguments to prove your point, excellent. The majority of the ones opposing mandatory teaching of Swedish are talking about having a choice between languages, instead of having nothing instead. If children were to choose which language to study as their second foreign language (at which point most are starting the seventh grade, mind you, so not actually babies), do you honestly think that just for the heck of it they would want something completely random or irrelevant to them? Hardly. Unity of the nation? It's more like dividing the nation as things currently are. For the most parts of Finland and most Finns, Swedish has absolutely no relevance in their daily lives whatsoever - for most throughout their lives. There just are no ties to Swedish language or Sweden other than what can be read in the history books, and what is seen/heard from Yle, due to the enforcement of the current policies. If there ever, I mean ever, is the potential to use Swedish, they will fair much better using English, as most likely already enough was forgotten to lose most of the vocabulary and fluency they may have had. Just for the heck of it, go to any cemetery outside the coastal regions and see the names on the tombstones, that gives a pretty good idea of how "Swedish" Finland inherently is. There are cultural similarities and good relations with a neighboring country, sure. That, however, is a long way from mandating the compulsory learning of their language for everyone. The thing is, you are viewing the issue from an angle that has very little to do with most people's lives. Suggesting that mandatory learning of Swedish is "for the greater good" pretty much equals giving the finger to most of Finland and Finns.

[foca]

Arguments are numerous , you can check the earlier threads . I am just tired of repeating them...but some of them are (without further elaboration for the above mentioned reason):
- historical backgound
- roots of fennomans movement,
- bilingualism of finnish swedes
- unity of the nation
-position of finnish swedes during the war
- political development of the language question, etc...
And against all that - I just hear " swedish is not needed" , "children can learn something else", "let them coose themselves "... - these are not real arguments weighted against the unique situation that has been achieved in Finland . After all, if you let children choose , they will choose to sit at home and play video games......
-

So you just come up with imaginary counter-arguments to prove your point, excellent. The majority of the ones opposing mandatory teaching of Swedish are talking about having a choice between languages, instead of having nothing instead. If children were to choose which language to study as their second foreign language (at which point most are starting the seventh grade, mind you, so not actually babies), do you honestly think that just for the heck of it they would want something completely random or irrelevant to them? Hardly. Unity of the nation? It's more like dividing the nation as things currently are. For the most parts of Finland and most Finns, Swedish has absolutely no relevance in their daily lives whatsoever - for most throughout their lives. There just are no ties to Swedish language or Sweden other than what can be read in the history books, and what is seen/heard from Yle, due to the enforcement of the current policies. If there ever, I mean ever, is the potential to use Swedish, they will fair much better using English, as most likely already enough was forgotten to lose most of the vocabulary and fluency they may have had. Just for the heck of it, go to any cemetery outside the coastal regions and see the names on the tombstones, that gives a pretty good idea of how "Swedish" Finland inherently is. There are cultural similarities and good relations with a neighboring country, sure. That, however, is a long way from mandating the compulsory learning of their language for everyone. The thing is, you are viewing the issue from an angle that has very little to do with most people's lives. Suggesting that mandatory learning of Swedish is "for the greater good" pretty much equals giving the finger to most of Finland and Finns.

Unfortunately your counter arguments against mine are as "imaginary" as you want to present mine. Stating that swedish has no relevance for most Finns has no relevance for swedish speaking people. If one tries to loose ties to cultural roots does not mean that those roots never existed or they have " no relevance". Some " forget" what they have learned in school (as much as some forget math, chemistry or physics) some actively use it - I know a finn who sits in the municipal council in a swedish speaking municipality , so he has gradually improved his Swedish . As for greater good , swedish as a second language (and a mandatory school subject) is a result of political struggle and social strive in the society , it is a compromise - a good one . Now let us see what the price is - 4 years of mandatory Swedish (if I am not mistaken) by 35 weeks by 2 hours a week gives you 280 school hours (of course you can recount it and arrive to the fact that I am somewhat mistaken - do not make a case out of it). Over 300 hours one can get just a basic grasp of a language , no one asks your child for more.... On the other hand cancelation of mandatory Swedish will sooner or later lead to a demand to cancel mandatory finnish in Swedish schools - where will it lead the nation to?

[FinnGuyHelsinki]

Unfortunately your counter arguments against mine are as "imaginary" as you want to present mine. Stating that swedish has no relevance for most Finns has no relevance for swedish speaking people. If one tries to loose ties to cultural roots does not mean that those roots never existed or they have " no relevance". Some " forget" what they have learned in school (as much as some forget math, chemistry or physics) some actively use it - I know a finn who sits in the municipal council in a swedish speaking municipality , so he has gradually improved his Swedish .

Have you ever lived, or visited for an extended period of time central Finland, eastern Finland or northern Finland and interacted with the locals? If yes, you know how far-fetched the notion of "Swedish" cultural roots showing in their daily lives is. If not, clearly you are viewing the whole issue from an angle that is not considering the people and their lives today. This is a matter on a macro level, we can all name lots of people from a variety of backgrounds that have done "something", and at the same time know that on a general level their individual deeds cannot be used as a basis for anything.

As for greater good , swedish as a second language (and a mandatory school subject) is a result of political struggle and social strive in the society , it is a compromise - a good one . Now let us see what the price is - 4 years of mandatory Swedish (if I am not mistaken) by 35 weeks by 2 hours a week gives you 280 school hours (of course you can recount it and arrive to the fact that I am somewhat mistaken - do not make a case out of it). Over 300 hours one can get just a basic grasp of a language , no one asks your child for more....

So because it is just "a little" bit of BS, it somehow ceases to be BS? The fact remains that those hours are better spent - both for the country and the individual - studying a language that one has an interest in, for some it is Swedish, for others something else.

On the other hand cancelation of mandatory Swedish will sooner or later lead to a demand to cancel mandatory finnish in Swedish schools - where will it lead the nation to?

It will lead to vastly improved variety of languages that people at least know the basics of, and to people making their own choices considering what is best for them.

[foca]

Have you ever lived, or visited for an extended period of time central Finland, eastern Finland or northern Finland and interacted with the locals? If yes, you know how far-fetched the notion of "Swedish" cultural roots showing in their daily lives is. If not, clearly you are viewing the whole issue from an angle that is not considering the people and their lives today. This is a matter on a macro level, we can all name lots of people from a variety of backgrounds that have done "something", and at the same time know that on a general level their individual deeds cannot be used as a basis for anything.

yes and yes. I have a cottage in mikkeli (even if it is not central finland , it is close to,it) I personally know a couple people who speak swedish there and who are very interested in the language. Apart from these two I have seen some people there who sit in the local baari and perhaps forgotten not even swedish/math/geography etc , but even finnish ....

So because it is just "a little" bit of BS, it somehow ceases to be BS? The fact remains that those hours are better spent - both for the country and the individual - studying a language that one has an interest in, for some it is Swedish, for others something else.

You look at it from purely practical point of view . But still there is a greater good - peace in the society (which can be achieved for such a small price) . From the practical point of view , most of people do not give a damn about democracy, elections , the parliamentary system etc.... The whole democracy thing costs untold millions , and is of no interest for many if not most . Why does it exist? Let us cancel it as absolutely irrelevant and too expensive. There are communists who are eager to teach you how to live with Das Kapital as the only thing that matters, you might save a penny - they will cancel the elections.

On the other hand cancelation of mandatory Swedish will sooner or later lead to a demand to cancel mandatory finnish in Swedish schools - where will it lead to?

qIt will lead to vastly improved variety of languages that people at least know the basics of, and to people making their own choices considering what is best for them.

It will lead to split in the society and deep resentment of the swedish speaking minority. Of course you might not care about it , but many people do...

[Honest]

It will lead to split in the society and deep resentment of the swedish speaking minority.

Why should they have this resentment at first place? What will they lose other than the satisfaction of being a very powerful minority if their language is not forced on the rest of the population? Nobody is stopping them from learning and speaking their own language.

You are talking as if there is a danger of a civil war in case mandatory Swedish is changed with a freedom of choice about languages. As said time and again it's not year 1700 anymore. Sooner or later it has to happen so better sooner than later.

The whole democracy thing costs untold millions , and is of no interest for many if not most . Why does it exist?

The answer is within your statement that there can be many but they are no where near a majority. But for Swedish it's very clear majority whcih wants to remove it from schools as a mandatory subject.

[007]

On the other hand cancelation of mandatory Swedish will sooner or later lead to a demand to cancel mandatory finnish in Swedish schools - where will it lead to?

qIt will lead to vastly improved variety of languages that people at least know the basics of, and to people making their own choices considering what is best for them.

It will lead to split in the society and deep resentment of the swedish speaking minority. Of course you might not care about it , but many people do...

As long as Swedish is one of the national languages, and services are being provided in Swedish, I really don't see what they really lose out other than not being able to force their language on other people. And, removal of compulsory Swedish does not mean banning it from being taught at schools that it should cause a 'deep resentment' in them. People who wanna reap the benefits of the Swedish language will learn it at their will, with taxpayers money.

And, I definitely think there's already a split in the society regarding compulsory Swedish, now only growing louder.

[Rip]

It will lead to split in the society and deep resentment of the swedish speaking minority.

I believe the majority of Swedish speakers will feel no such thing, but regarding the fraction that will feel so, I'd welcome it. Just as much as I'd welcome the frustration of school yard bully being frustrated. If they are so open in their contempt of the Finnish speaking majority, that they can feel happy only when they force their language down by other people's throats, not because the people who had "pakkoruotsi" would be of use in offering public services to Swedish speakers (the SFP/RKP itself does not believe that), but just for the pure pleasure of mobbing, then let them be unhappy.