Alone against Bus company, need an advise

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Beep_Boop
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Re: Alone against Bus company, need an advise

Post by Beep_Boop » Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:43 pm

tummansininen wrote:he got flamed as an idiot driver.
Oh, come on, tummansininen!
Nobody said he's an idiot driver. In fact, I made it very clear that I think it might not have been his fault. Honestly, I truly think it's the bus driver's fault. But what does that help? Does it change the law? Does it change the circumstances of the event? Absolutely not!
Even if every single person on this forum thought that the OP is right and the bus driver is wrong, what would that do? Nothing at all!

The facts of the case are still the same:
- The bus had the right of way, so OP had the responsibility to clear the turn.
- OP has no dashcam footage or witnesses.
- There might be doubts about where the OP stopped for yielding.

Those are facts. They have nothing to do with me, you, or anybody here. They have nothing to do with what we think, hope, or want. They remain the same no matter how we feel about them.
Looking at the facts, it seems that the case will be ruled against OP. LET'S MAKE IT CLEAR: Does that mean we think it's OP's fault? Nope. Does that mean we think OP is a bad driver? Nope. Does that mean we hate OP? Nope.
All it means is that the law/police/insurance (based on the facts) would likely be against the OP. That's all this means.
Y77 wrote:you are also alone against the moronic answers you get from some of the clowns in this forum that try to look smart.
Thanks, mate. :thumbsup:


Every case is unique. You can't measure the result of your application based on arbitrary anecdotes online.

Re: Alone against Bus company, need an advise

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rinso
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Re: Alone against Bus company, need an advise

Post by rinso » Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:53 am

ok I'll take into consideration.
:thumbsup:
People come here looking for a solution to their problem. But they often don't realize the situation is not the worse case scenario.
Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

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rinso
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Re: Alone against Bus company, need an advise

Post by rinso » Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:06 am

Y77 wrote: The right answer is that you are not a bus driver, therefore you are not expected to know the radius of the bus while manouvering.
The law doesn't take that into account.
The bus driver didn't stop after the accident and that makes his position even worse.
Go to court and take the driver's shirt off, he's guilty as hell.
The police was at the scene and made a report, so they know the facts.
And fleeing the scene of an accident is very serious. Still they took little action to find the driver and persecute him for a criminal offense.
Instead they issued a report for the insurance. This shows that they (based on their knowledge of the law and their experience) think the responsibility lies 100% with the OP.
Even the insurance didn't try to get the bus company involved and shift the blame.
So go to court and get burned.

To the OP:
You might contact your insurance and ask their opinion about the situation.

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Pursuivant
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Re: Alone against Bus company, need an advise

Post by Pursuivant » Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:13 pm

Well, the police didn't fine the OP for "endangerment of traffic" what usually happens when you call and annoy them, so that goes on the plus side.
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Something wicked this way comes."

Oberon
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Re: Alone against Bus company, need an advise

Post by Oberon » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:34 pm

One very specific question if anyone has some insider's knowledge of bus operations:
Given the exact time, location and line number, should not it be possible for bus company to identify particular vehicle and driver involved in the accident (by digging through their logs etc)?



rinso wrote: Even the insurance didn't try to get the bus company involved and shift the blame.

To the OP:
You might contact your insurance and ask their opinion about the situation.
Why would you expect in such situation insurance will be interested in doing something in either case? I have had perfect insurance history so far, and after this I'm loosing at least part of my bonus. The damage is not very big - repairing cracked bumper and dented fender is not really big deal for them. So it might be more profitable in a long shot to repair it and squeeze out more money out of me in than investing time and effort in shifting the blame.

I already asked for advise, they seemed as surprised of the investigator report as I was, but as expected they did not offer any help. They suggested the obvious thing - to take the case in my hands and try to deal with the bus company directly rather than through the police.

The situation I have cannot get any worse than that. Nobody on earth will be able to prove my blame in the accident based on traffic regulations and make me pay damages to the bus. I opened this thread to get as much information as I can and estimate risks and probable consequences of my actions. Yes, I realize it is better for everyone (except me) that the car is repaired from my wallet. Still, pragmatically speaking, there will be always a better chance of success if I do something about it, as opposed to waiting for the god almighty to bring a neatly wrapped justice right in front of my door.
Last edited by Oberon on Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Beep_Boop
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Re: Alone against Bus company, need an advise

Post by Beep_Boop » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:55 pm

Oberon wrote:Given the exact time, location and line number, should not it be possible for bus company to identify particular vehicle and driver involved in the accident (by digging through their logs etc)?
They are absolutely able to extract that kind of information from their logs. With any crappy IT solution, that should be straightforward. Even if with a paper-based system, it should still be possible.
Every case is unique. You can't measure the result of your application based on arbitrary anecdotes online.

Oberon
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Re: Alone against Bus company, need an advise

Post by Oberon » Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:24 pm

adnan wrote:
Oberon wrote:Given the exact time, location and line number, should not it be possible for bus company to identify particular vehicle and driver involved in the accident (by digging through their logs etc)?
They are absolutely able to extract that kind of information from their logs. With any crappy IT solution, that should be straightforward. Even if with a paper-based system, it should still be possible.
I also think it should not be hard. However, here's what the detective wrote to me:

"I have been contact with the bus company. They stated that haven't found right bus or right driver. That's way investigation has been finished."

Here's what puzzles me:
If the company was actually unable to find it out, then it means they do not keep records on which bus is going where and who's driving it at any given moment. Given the fact that it is Finland, where everything is strictly controlled (and the technology available in public transport allows that), I find it a bit hard to believe.

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rinso
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Re: Alone against Bus company, need an advise

Post by rinso » Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:34 pm

Why would you expect in such situation insurance will be interested in doing something in either case? I have had perfect insurance history so far, and after this I'm loosing at least part of my bonus. The damage is not very big - repairing cracked bumper and dented fender is not really big deal for them. So it might be more profitable in a long shot to repair it and squeeze out more money out of me in than investing time and effort in shifting a blame.
Yes, it depends on a cost - benefit calculation. But if it seems clear the other party was at fault, they can take action, even for small amounts. They often use a system to exchange damage claims. And a few small claims at one side can compensate for a bigger one at the other side.
They stated that haven't found right bus or right driver.
.
I find it a bit hard to believe.
It depends, For a route with a half hour (or longer) frequency, there should be no confusion about which bus was where.
But for short frequency schedules it could be less certain.
Of course it could also be that they (= low payed administrator) didn't want to spent time to figure it out.

Oberon
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Re: Alone against Bus company, need an advise

Post by Oberon » Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:55 pm

Update: after running back and forth between offices finally made bus company to repair my car.
Want to thank once again those who tried to help, and in retrospective of this 'story', I want to point out one issue on this forum. First lets get back to some set of comments I received:
So it seems that you didn't take in account the turning radius of the bus.
Looks like you were the careless one.
As for the damages; it was your fault. So the investigation wouldn't change anything.
The approach the legal system takes is simple:
- he had right of way => you're wrong (unless you can prove he was reckless)
(a slightly wider turn than necessary isn't reckless)
So no dashcam or witnesses; then you have no case.
If the bus had the right of way, it's on you to stop at a suitable distance enough for the bus to turn freely.
Honestly, from your description, it sounds like you stopped too late/far into your way that you abstracted the bus' way. If I thought about, then any police investigators would have thought about it as well.
I specifically asked to the detective (and also to other experienced drivers) about his opinion and he said, based on what I showed and described to the police I am 100% right. Nobody said something even in near vicinity of what you say here. On the other hand, drivers tend to agree that bus drivers in JKL think/act like they are the kings of the roads. I have seen few very rude actions from them here in capital as well.
Their job is to solve problems. Finding the driver doesn't solve anything. So they can let it rest.
If they really dig into it they might even fine you for a traffic violation (not leaving the crossing free) even if only you have damages.
"right of way (unless ...)" is the legal way to put the blame on someone.
So unless you can show the other party was extremely careless the responsibility (for damage compensation) falls on you.
You are showing Road Rage Temperament here - what it be on the road - you can't overtake the law - stop honking :lol:
All this 'you seem to be wrong here' attitude was not helping as I have mentioned earlier and more importantly is now proved that was simply WRONG. I said in the very beginning that the bus driver was irresponsible and you did not want to believe. When I pointed out this, it was then translated (by some) as if I came for comfort here, like this quote shows below:
Damn it, man! Stop being so unhelpful. Just tell him he's 100% right and that the police will send him flowers and the bus company will give him 10000 euros for the emotional damage.

When I initially opened the thread, honestly, the first responses made me like 'why the f%%k I'm wasting my time in justifying my actions to some wannabe judges blaming me?' Later, just about when it was starting to go too far, some people actually tried to be helpful. After a while, even those initially blaming me realized the whole uselessness of their approach and tried focus more on the available options.

So, here is the point I'm trying to make (it is general point based on my experiences here and not based solely on this specific thread):

Drawing conclusions on a user based only on his/her username (and on other irrelevant 'cues') happens very frequently here (and as I observed repeatedly by some set of users) and then the perceived background defines how some part of very active users here respond.
'Oh you know, many halfwits just hop on the plane and move to some country first and then ask all the relevant questions' is not a good excuse for being a##hole to others. I've been there myself, I was welcomed by such attitude in my very first thread before I said anything about me. Having some critical thinking skills due to my profession, and seeing such preconceptions coming out of nowhere makes me wondering how can such stupidity exist in the country with very high-level education system. Don't have time to collect the quotes supporting that, but everyone interested can check and see.

I don't care what's the story of those idiots feeling they are superior to others, and motivation behind wasting time in insulting the targeted group of foreigners (who they think are halfwits).
What I do care about is that it is the largest forum for foreigners here and good source of information. When someone is asking for help, the last thing he/she needs to see is highly biased judgement of the particular situation. So, simply try to help in finding the solution by assuming that the situation the user describes is right. If you don't want to help - skip it. The more you try to 'show off' your ungrounded reasoning skills,the more likely you'll end up looking like an idiot.

Be like a friend rather than a judge.

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Re: Alone against Bus company, need an advise

Post by Upphew » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:48 pm

Oberon wrote:Be like a friend rather than a judge.
Expect to be reminded that your driving sucks for... 19 years and counting. Friends <3
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Oberon
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Re: Alone against Bus company, need an advise

Post by Oberon » Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:58 am

Upphew wrote:
Oberon wrote:Be like a friend rather than a judge.
Expect to be reminded that your driving sucks for... 19 years and counting. Friends <3
Did not get the point.
roger_roger wrote:
Oberon wrote:Update: after running back and forth between offices finally made bus company to repair my car.
Good, I am happy for you buddy. By the way how much did you spend to go through all of this? Stress and emotions ? But you look like a different never give up kind of attitude, I admire you.
Did not hire someone for legal advise. I did waste some time from my holidays, and it was pretty stressful yes. Thanks for the support.

AldenG
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Re: Alone against Bus company, need an advise

Post by AldenG » Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:44 am

Good job.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.

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Re: Alone against Bus company, need an advise

Post by Upphew » Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:49 am

Oberon wrote:
Upphew wrote:
Oberon wrote:Be like a friend rather than a judge.
Expect to be reminded that your driving sucks for... 19 years and counting. Friends <3
Did not get the point.
Me or you?

I did check how the thread started and didn't see any judging (or rather any more than can be expected if cops decide not to pursue things). Maybe someone should have asked you to provide link to the place this crash happened and your description about it by drawing it. Describing traffic accidents by words leave too much leeway to the mind of the reader.
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Oberon
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Re: Alone against Bus company, need an advise

Post by Oberon » Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:53 pm

Upphew wrote: didn't see any judging (or rather any more than can be expected if cops decide not to pursue things)
The quotes below represent assumptions about who is to blame in the situation. Do you want offer any other interpretation?
Oberon wrote:
So it seems that you didn't take in account the turning radius of the bus.
Looks like you were the careless one.
As for the damages; it was your fault. So the investigation wouldn't change anything.
The approach the legal system takes is simple:
- he had right of way => you're wrong (unless you can prove he was reckless)
(a slightly wider turn than necessary isn't reckless)
So no dashcam or witnesses; then you have no case.
If the bus had the right of way, it's on you to stop at a suitable distance enough for the bus to turn freely.
Honestly, from your description, it sounds like you stopped too late/far into your way that you abstracted the bus' way. If I thought about, then any police investigators would have thought about it as well.
Their job is to solve problems. Finding the driver doesn't solve anything. So they can let it rest.
If they really dig into it they might even fine you for a traffic violation (not leaving the crossing free) even if only you have damages.
"right of way (unless ...)" is the legal way to put the blame on someone.
So unless you can show the other party was extremely careless the responsibility (for damage compensation) falls on you.
You are showing Road Rage Temperament here - what it be on the road - you can't overtake the law - stop honking :lol:

Upphew
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Re: Alone against Bus company, need an advise

Post by Upphew » Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:18 pm

Oberon wrote:
Upphew wrote:didn't see any judging (or rather any more than can be expected if cops decide not to pursue things)
The quotes below represent assumptions about who is to blame in the situation. Do you want offer any other interpretation?
After the info you gave, it was better and more comprehensive than usually here, most seemed to agree that best advise is to stop pursuing the case as it seemed to be (to them) that you had nothing to gain.
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