Living in Finland as a foreigner

[Piet]

Anybody can put any flags for a hundred different reasons but the reason I asked is because Iwanted to see if he was talking about the discrimination which blacks and darks face here or the kind of discrimination locals here are also complaining about sometimes.

The biggest discrimination problem in the Netherlands would be the the discrimination of people that look Arabic / North African so in general that means darker skin (lighter than Indian but darker than Italian) like a lot of Dutch want to have by laying in the sun on the beach (duh).

But I sense you want to know if the discrimination in the Netherlands is actually racial (racism) or religious (monoculture)?

...

You don't run out of clichés do you.....

Nope...not when they prove to be accurate.

[Holland]

Are you a dark skinned Dutch or one with a European look?

Why do you ask???? check out his flags in his signature.. Dutch and Italian ...that should tell you the answer you want to know. (or at least give you a hint).

Anybody can put any flags for a hundred different reasons but the reason I asked is because Iwanted to see if he was talking about the discrimination which blacks and darks face here or the kind of discrimination locals here are also complaining about sometimes.

hold on Piet, he was merely asking my racial set-up. Nationality doesn't mean that much these days throughout Europe, especially in the Netherlands.

But to answer your question, I'm 50% Alpine Italian (for reference, comparable to south Austrians or folk from Milano), 25% NW Aryan ("native" race of Holland) and 25% Mediterranean Italian (this is probably where my chameleon abilities come from )
I can go from pale during winter time to as tanned as a person from North Africa/Turkey during the summer given that I get enough sunshine. Finnish people can instantly tell I do not share their racial traits, especially when I'm standing next to my bright white Finnish girlfriend .
But I wasn't only referring to complexity when I mentioned discrimination. Let's just say there is some cases where being Dutch in the Netherlands could actually work to your disadvantage.

Finland is a great country in many ways but that's a fact that racism and xenophobia is more prevalent here than the countries with longer/richer history of immigration and interaction with other cultures . I hope things will change with time.

Have you considered that the relative monocultarlism of Finland is what makes it such a great country to live in? Why would you hope for this to change?

You must be joking, I cannot answer for Marsh04 but personally I would find the general culture in Finland one of the minuses of living here, it is all the other stuff that makes living here great.
This makes living in Finland great: (not the people and their culture)

I actually think the Finnish culture and people are great. There is so little violence, crime and impoliteness here compared to where I come from (The Hague fyi). The main downside, especially to other Nordic country would be the introvertism for me, I miss the "sociability" I had in Holland.

It's funny, because I tend to feel discriminated quite a lot in the Netherlands, and here barely. That isn't a hard-prooven fact ofcourse, but to me it feels that way. Overall I feel like the racism thing in Finland is highly overrated, and not a problem in such degree that reformations are needed. But ofcourse, that's my current perspective.

I agree, it is not so much about racism, but about the hidden discrimination of foreigners (at the job market) in general. Actually it came to my attention that it is easier for a Somalian guy to get a job than for an highly educated British female. It is like in the Netherlands in the 70's all the jobs the Finnish do not want to do, an (refugee) immigrant can do.

In Finland most is hidden, compared to Netherlands, here you will not have a politician shout at his Election "victory": Do you want more or less Moroccans!! like the moron Wilders. Soini is a little more smart so to say..

well, I'm not sure if discrimination is the right term. I find it logical that a Finnish employer would rather hire someone fluent in Finnish, than someone whom controls the language not that well. Whichever country you migrate to, you're guaranteed to have more difficulty of being employed simply because you often have a vocal disadvantage. I don't think it's justified to blame employers for this.

As for the hidden aspect, naturally every country has one or more parties opposing immigration. Because in the Netherlands the population that has a Moroccan ethical background tend to be so visibly involved in crime and contra-integration this tends to be a nation whom they would rather see immigration stop. However, asking a crowd whether they want more or less Morrocans in Holland is of course an easy way to have yourself being portrayed as racist by other parties and is an utterly stupid move from a promo-political standpoint. But to call the man a moron goes a little bit too far. I'm not sure if I would've done better in his position, though I highly doubt I'd make the same mistake he made that day.

[Piet]

Point taken, nonetheless my hint was quite accurate (regarding the flags).

Regarding the Finnish people, my remark was of course a general remark, I do however have a lot nice Finnish Friends here but they actually agree with me that Finnish (men in particular) tend to be arrogant, anti social, greedy, jealous and "afraid" of foreigners (and introvert). However I do understand your point regarding the people in the Hague, I think there is/was actually a satiric TV program about that but I cannot recall the name of it.
If however you used to live either in the south or the north of the Netherlands, you would find people there much more social and friendly in general (a few villages excluded)
I guess Finland can be compared in great extend to "Volendam" people wise.

I have lived here for a long while now and I have to admit that the situation is slowly getting better lately, especially with the younger generation.

Regarding the discrimination at the Job market, I see your point and I agree with you and understand that an employer would rather hire a Fin, but that does not make it untrue or non-existent (the discrimination), so why not admit it (as a Fin) that this problem is existing, everyone her (also a lot on this forum) try to say that it is not true and that there is no discrimination and that is just a plain lie. Why not admit it. Everyone seems to want to HIDE it so that is why I call it hidden discrimination.

Another problem that still exists (although getting less) is the system that they call here: "suhteet" If you want a job, especially a more skilled job, you will need these relations, you have to know someone that knows someone that works at the Firm where you are applying for a job. Without these "suhteet" it becomes so much harder too, so that is 2 things working against you while applying for a job as a foreigner, and this is a cultural thing that is almost non existent in Germany, Netherlands and Canada.

Another Cultural thing I noticed here, that makes me furious sometimes, is the short term thinking of repairing or building or constructing things, things are not done to make something last, no it must be quick and easy and cheap..(could be dutch ) Fins could learn something from the Germans here..

Anyway, it hurts me to see how the Finnish (have) ruin(ed) their own country for the past 25 years....and I am happy for the fact I can still enjoy parts of it that are like the picture I posted earlier in this thread. As said before, this is a great country when you are a student, have money, have kids, or are not smoking and drinking alcohol while on welfare.

I greet you all and I will go and enjoy the nature treasures of Finland now:

[Upphew]

Another problem that still exists (although getting less) is the system that they call here: "suhteet" If you want a job, especially a more skilled job, you will need these relations, you have to know someone that knows someone that works at the Firm where you are applying for a job. Without these "suhteet" it becomes so much harder too, so that is 2 things working against you while applying for a job as a foreigner, and this is a cultural thing that is almost non existent in Germany, Netherlands and Canada.

Smaller country makes the connections more likely. If you have couple of schools that give the relevant education, it is likely you can have connections to potential employer. Do you say that Germany, Netherlands and Canada don't put any weight to references?

Another Cultural thing I noticed here, that makes me furious sometimes, is the short term thinking of repairing or building or constructing things, things are not done to make something last, no it must be quick and easy and cheap..(could be dutch ) Fins could learn something from the Germans here..

Indeed. Layman are not willing to pay for professional to scrutinize things they don't understand. And when the understanding is limited to price and everything else is weighed by gut feeling... good luck.

Then there are the differences how officials and rules behave and are treated.

[Piet]

Another problem that still exists (although getting less) is the system that they call here: "suhteet" If you want a job, especially a more skilled job, you will need these relations, you have to know someone that knows someone that works at the Firm where you are applying for a job. Without these "suhteet" it becomes so much harder too, so that is 2 things working against you while applying for a job as a foreigner, and this is a cultural thing that is almost non existent in Germany, Netherlands and Canada.

Smaller country makes the connections more likely. If you have couple of schools that give the relevant education, it is likely you can have connections to potential employer. Do you say that Germany, Netherlands and Canada don't put any weight to references?

Another Cultural thing I noticed here, that makes me furious sometimes, is the short term thinking of repairing or building or constructing things, things are not done to make something last, no it must be quick and easy and cheap..(could be dutch ) Fins could learn something from the Germans here..

Indeed. Layman are not willing to pay for professional to scrutinize things they don't understand. And when the understanding is limited to price and everything else is weighed by gut feeling... good luck.

Then there are the differences how officials and rules behave and are treated.

To answer your first question about references, there is a distinctive difference between references and suhteet, suhteet as mentioned here means a friend, family, good acquaintance, references however are previous employers (in Germany and Netherlands )

But the answer is: references are of limited importance in Germany and the Netherlands, Canada I don't know any more... too long ago , your papers and education and experience are the thing that gets you invited / hired there.

In Finland, if for example a friend of the johtaja tells the johtaja..hey you got to hire that guy, he is my friend and he is good....at the interview your papers and CV are not even discussed any-more, the johtaja (most likely) will not even read them, you will be hired. That is something that will (almost) never happen in Germany or The Netherlands. This however happened to me twice here in Finland, and in both cases I made a remark about this and at first the johtaja denied that the system works like that, but upon asking how often he checked my papers they had to admit not ever... so eventually (in both cases) they admitted the "suhteet" forced the decision to hire me, and not my references..or my resume for that matter.

Please everyone note that I am still referring to jobs that require higher education, this is not about working at S-market.

Last point:
I agree, it is very clear that there are huge differences between official rules and the execution of these rules by each person in the hierarchy of, for example, a housing company, her in Finland, but I guess that is for another thread
Have a nice "after summer" everyone... I sure will...(driving my motorbike today )

[Holland]

I must admit that I too have noticed you need to know people to get a job. At first I had an incredibly hard time finding any matching applications at all, which ultimately didn't succeed. Luckily for me my girlfriend's father works at the same company as I do know, and he forwarded my CV and papers to a colleague of his, whom is now my current boss.

Concerning the engineering to last, I work in an engineering company, and generally the table of demands intend to have us design something durable, even though Helsinki is a constantly evolving city. What exactly do you mean by short term thinking?

[Oho]

I must admit that I too have noticed you need to know people to get a job.

Well be that as it may, it is not segregation against foreigners as such but largely coincidental (well you perhaps being a point in proof), it is nepotism and equally affects anyone without the ties, which probably translates to about 80% of graduates regardless of race, color or creed. Anyway even in your case rather than just plain ole nepotism sounds more like simple lack of relevant working history a Finnish employer can really relate to. Working experience, I gather, just is not that easily transferable if the potential employer has no idea what it actually entails behind facade of titles.

Cant say I know much about looking for work but the few times I have applied the process has been quite confidential whether I was extended an offer or not, I simply have no idea who I was pitted against let alone why I got the nod, suffice to say it sure as hell had nothing to do with my family ties. The same applies to situation now, of the new recruits, well I hear when he or she has accepted the offer if then, nothing about the process as such though one could spy a bit by looking at relevant outlook calendars.

[Piet]

Concerning the engineering to last, I work in an engineering company, and generally the table of demands intend to have us design something durable, even though Helsinki is a constantly evolving city. What exactly do you mean by short term thinking?

I can answer that with a clear example of what just happened to a friend of mine (he is actually dutch..unlike me but..that's another story). He lives in an apartment from a housing company and he got a renovation of his bathroom because there was water inside the wall and this can cause health problems due to moulds forming there.
The housing company said that the renovation will be done but the old door lists and heating radiators will be reused. He told the technical manager that it would be a mistake (he is an engineer too) because the lists won't fit the new thicker wall and the radiator was rusted badly so it would start leaking soon. He was told that this was nonsense and the housing company had to save money.
After the renovation was finished, the condensate water and the shower water were directly running behind the lists that did not fit the wall thickness (which also fell off the wall when touched) and therefore making the new tiled wall wet again from the inside.
By not addressing the mentioned point of the lists, the housing company makes sure the whole renovation and drying of the wall has to be repeated in half a year. The radiator started leaking 2 weeks after the renovation and is now pending replacement...Oh the housing company eventually listened to this guy so the contractor came back with new lists and silicone, but...he forgot to put silicone on top of the lists so the condensate water is still running directly behind the list into the wall...dumb dumb dumb...
In all cases the contractor said he knew what he did was wrong but those were the housing company orders..duh...

Finland is a country where problems do not get solved, the symptoms are addressed but the problem remains...just look at their politics and health care...
Man..the times that I went to the health centre and got sent away with just a couple of painkillers while antibiotics were needed or an emergency visit to the hospital was needed, damn I am lucky I do know a lot about medicine otherwise I would have been dead already 3 times..(so after getting sent home wrongly, I went to a private doctor.. they made the correct diagnosis...according to the specialist in the hospital).

So, to summarize short term thinking / bad quality: in construction, healthcare, car maintenance (by the owners ), clothing, business (nokia )

This has not always been that way with everything...Nokia used to make very durable phones... my 3310 is still working as is my 3510, 6600, 6610 N95 N8 808
Actually my 3510 fell out of my pocket doing 200Km/h on my motorbike, It fell to the asphalt and broke up in a few pieces, but when I put it together again (yes I turned around and picked up the pieces) all I needed was a new front cover and the thing still worked!!

But those are memories..(that I treasure).

Well be that as it may, it is not segregation against foreigners as such but largely coincidental (well you perhaps being a point in proof), it is nepotism and equally affects anyone without the ties, which probably translates to about 80% of graduates regardless of race, color or creed. Anyway even in your case rather than just plain ole nepotism sounds more like simple lack of relevant working history a Finnish employer can really relate to. Working experience, I gather, just is not that easily transferable if the potential employer has no idea what it actually entails behind facade of titles.

It is just a shame that they do not tell you or even deny that the system works like that (at TE-office or immigration course or whatever). It gives a foreigner a handicapped start.

But I agree, in general big global (IT) companies, this problem is less or even absent, depends purely on how well the company in question, is internationally oriented. Both the "suhteet" phenomenon as well as the foreigner hidden discrimination.

So lets all learn Linux , writing scripts and code in C++ that will get you a job..and no need for Finnish language..

[FinnGuyHelsinki]

It is just a shame that they do not tell you or even deny that the system works like that (at TE-office or immigration course or whatever). It gives a foreigner a handicapped start.

But I agree, in general big global (IT) companies, this problem is less or even absent, depends purely on how well the company in question, is internationally oriented. Both the "suhteet" phenomenon as well as the foreigner hidden discrimination.

There's no "system", it is human nature and the sensible thing to do. Why wouldn't one want to hire someone they already know for a fact that can do the job well or have references from someone they trust. If there isn't that, you will have to convince them otherwise that you can actually do the job and do it well, and not just say so. In many fields, there are local standards that are followed, so working experience or education in some another country in the same field may not directly translate, meaning the employer would have to train you first. Would you hire someone like that over a person that can already do the job according to the requirements? The only thing that's different in a larger corporation is that they may have English as their working language, otherwise the same rules apply. If one would try to get hired in such a company without speaking fluent English, there would be no chance whatsoever. Why would it have to be any different for a company the working language of which is Finnish? Because you don't speak it nor can't be arsed to learn it?

So lets all learn Linux , writing scripts and code in C++ that will get you a job..and no need for Finnish language..

Why wouldn't you want to learn the local language wherever you are? In most countries you would absolutely have to in order to accomplish anything. Stop whining, if you have the needed skills, can back them up, not be a complete a-hole personally and can speak the employer's working language you will eventually get hired.

[Oho]

.

[Oho]

It is just a shame that they do not tell you or even deny that the system works like that (at TE-office or immigration course or whatever). It gives a foreigner a handicapped start.

Never said that's how the system works, I said ' Be that as it may'.

[Piet]

There's no "system", it is human nature and the sensible thing to do. Why wouldn't one want to hire someone they already know for a fact that can do the job well or have references from someone they trust. If there isn't that, you will have to convince them otherwise that you can actually do the job and do it well, and not just say so. In many fields, there are local standards that are followed, so working experience or education in some another country in the same field may not directly translate, meaning the employer would have to train you first. Would you hire someone like that over a person that can already do the job according to the requirements? The only thing that's different in a larger corporation is that they may have English as their working language, otherwise the same rules apply. If one would try to get hired in such a company without speaking fluent English, there would be no chance whatsoever. Why would it have to be any different for a company the working language of which is Finnish? Because you don't speak it nor can't be arsed to learn it?

Why wouldn't you want to learn the local language wherever you are? In most countries you would absolutely have to in order to accomplish anything. Stop whining, if you have the needed skills, can back them up, not be a complete a-hole personally and can speak the employer's working language you will eventually get hired.

I guess you just made my point here:

You admit here that (hidden) discrimination is (Finnish) human nature. What you state here is not about equal job opportunities (/chances) at all, it is about prejudice and blind faith in relatives and friends.
You clearly show here the "we Finns know everything attitude." you forget that for the jobs I am talking about here, some higher level of education is required, we do not talk about S-market jobs: Remember the Finnish education is not as high as you might think, http://yle.fi/uutiset/helsinki_universi ... ls/8230567 so assuming that a foreign degree is less valuable or worse than a Finnish one has a big chance of being just the other way around

I have (in my 25 years in Finland) experienced these (hidden) discriminations in all different forms, but the most staggering of them all was when a position I applied to, went to a candidate with less education and less experience than me, only because he, being a Finn, spoke Fluent Finnish (while this was not required for the job and I do speak Finnish but not Fluently).
As explained later by a (Finnish) relative working in the same company, I was considered a threat (because of my high knowledge level in that field) for the position of the one having to hire me. He was afraid that I would be promoted faster than he.... So as an excuse, he used the Finnish language as a reason to cancel me from the list of candidates (while Fluent English was needed).

And your remark about learning the language, I totally agree that everyone should learn the language from the country they live in. But as stated before (and ignored by you), as being a foreigner, it will not help to get a job easier, due to this (now finally admitted) hidden discrimination, by adding the phrase "fluently Finnish" to a job add where this would be not needed in any way and f.e. Level B1 or even A2.2 would suffice.

I will not repeat previous explanations in this thread, everyone with little understanding of English can read it back, as said at the beginning of this post, you only made my point.

And to conclude: all these allegations I made towards the Finnish labour market / employers, I provided several sources (Finnish media) for this so there is actually proof.

I gave my view on living in Finland as a foreigner, my experiences and my conclusions in this thread, anyone interested can take them at hart and use them to their benefit, for others still in denial....well I couldn't care less, I will enjoy my life here anyway: Just had a spin on my (most beautiful) motorbike (in the world) again...life is great...

[Upphew]

There's no "system", it is human nature and the sensible thing to do. Why wouldn't one want to hire someone they already know for a fact that can do the job well or have references from someone they trust. If there isn't that, you will have to convince them otherwise that you can actually do the job and do it well, and not just say so. In many fields, there are local standards that are followed, so working experience or education in some another country in the same field may not directly translate, meaning the employer would have to train you first. Would you hire someone like that over a person that can already do the job according to the requirements? The only thing that's different in a larger corporation is that they may have English as their working language, otherwise the same rules apply. If one would try to get hired in such a company without speaking fluent English, there would be no chance whatsoever. Why would it have to be any different for a company the working language of which is Finnish? Because you don't speak it nor can't be arsed to learn it?

I guess you just made my point here:

You admit here that (hidden) discrimination is (Finnish) human nature. What you state here is not about equal job opportunities (/chances) at all, it is about prejudice and blind faith in relatives and friends.
You clearly show here the "we Finns know everything attitude." you forget that for the jobs I am talking about here, some higher level of education is required, we do not talk about S-market jobs: Remember the Finnish education is not as high as you might think, http://yle.fi/uutiset/helsinki_universi ... ls/8230567 so assuming that a foreign degree is less valuable or worse than a Finnish one has a big chance of being just the other way around

What discrimination? One candidate is "known goods" as someone you know knows him. Same with education. How the one hiring could know every university? Should they know that 10% bachelor studies are labeled "Developing Biblical Faith and Lifestyle"? If Finns knew everything that wouldn't be a problem...

[Piet]

What discrimination? One candidate is "known goods" as someone you know knows him. Same with education. How the one hiring could know every university? Should they know that 10% bachelor studies are labeled "Developing Biblical Faith and Lifestyle"? If Finns knew everything that wouldn't be a problem...

I guess you miss the point here: The point is the hidden discrimination on the Job market and the "suhteet" phenomenon, preventing a fair chance for foreigner workers and most important: the Finnish denying that it exists..
You just admitted too, that it exists, you even advocate the reason why... you don't need to, we all know the reasons why...Finnish employers should just be honest about it. Don't blame the foreigner worker for it, he tries his best to get the job.. no self respecting soul would want to be jobless...and they have the right to complain about the unfairness of the system just because it is a fact...(it might even help in some occasions to complain about it). Most immigrants also try to really learn the (some say) second hardest language in the world, the grammar is like mathematics which would be ok if there were not so much exceptions and for that matter, ever tried to get a Finn explain when and how to use the "translatiivi" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translative_case most won't know.

Off topic:

And to all other people interested in Finnish culture, you might want to read from the Finnish author Arto Paasilinna... he surely knows where to put the finger on the sore spot on multiple issues.. I love his books
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arto_Paasilinna for the Dutch and English people reading this thread, a lot of his books are also translated in Dutch and English (and 45 other languages).

My favorites: "Hurmaava joukkoitsemurha" (A Charming Mass Suicide) and "Kymmenen riivinrautaa" (The Ten Shrews).

I just wanted to share these thoughts with you (more will follow )

[Upphew]

What discrimination? One candidate is "known goods" as someone you know knows him. Same with education. How the one hiring could know every university? Should they know that 10% bachelor studies are labeled "Developing Biblical Faith and Lifestyle"? If Finns knew everything that wouldn't be a problem...

I guess you miss the point here: The point is the hidden discrimination on the Job market and the "suhteet" phenomenon, preventing a fair chance for foreigner workers and most important: the Finnish denying that it exists..
You just admitted too, that it exists, you even advocate the reason why... you don't need to, we all know the reasons why...Finnish employers should just be honest about it. Don't blame the foreigner worker for it, he tries his best to get the job.. no self respecting soul would want to be jobless...and they have the right to complain about the unfairness of the system just because it is a fact...(it might even help in some occasions to complain about it). Most immigrants also try to really learn the (some say) second hardest language in the world, the grammar is like mathematics which would be ok if there were not so much exceptions and for that matter, ever tried to get a Finn explain when and how to use the "translatiivi" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translative_case most won't know.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm saying that it is normal, universal thing. And not limited to Finland any way. Ever heard about linkedin? Effing business centered around the "suhteet" thing.