Finland vs Sweden

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BigStack
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Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:08 am

Finland vs Sweden

Post by BigStack » Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:57 am

Hi,

My current job situation is currently very unstable and it looks like I will need to find a new employer. Despite my lack of Finnish skills, I am currently working for my second employer within the field of Finance & Accounting having been working and living in Finland for a total of 4 years now. However, although I have proven it to be possible to get work, it seems the on-going economic situation means the current job market is dire.

So, I am now casting the net further afield and seriously considering the possibility of re-locating to Stockholm with my Finnish wife. I would be interested to hear from anybody who has experienced living in both countries e.g. is Sweden easier to get by as a foreigner? Are their decent job possibilities for non-Swedish speakers? Is there a chance I may actually be able to master the local language? :D Any links to similar resources as this forum but focusing on Sweden also gratefully received.



Finland vs Sweden

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Beep_Boop
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Re: Finland vs Sweden

Post by Beep_Boop » Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:16 pm

If I had the chance to do it all over again without the deep ties I currently have in Finland, I'd totally choose a Scandinavian country over Finland.

Finland is far behind in almost every economical metric. It has the lowest GDP per capita in the Nordics, the highest unemployment, the highest youth unemployment, the lowest GDP growth (it's in the negative), and the 2nd highest public-debt-of-GDP percentage after Iceland. Almost every other Nordic country is more welcoming to outsiders than Finland. The languages are easier, the societies are more used to tourists, foreign workers, mixed relationships, etc.

I'd love to sit here and convince myself that things will be better soon, or to allow my love for Finland to fill my head with delusions, but this is just how it is. I don't know what you should choose, but, if I were you, I'd choose any other Nordic country than Finland.
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Kifkfo
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Re: Finland vs Sweden

Post by Kifkfo » Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:00 am

Youth unemployment in Sweden was higher as of even last year, but now Finland has higher rate (LFS).

Sweden with its extreme, fanatical stance on low IQ country immigration will probably have a civil war with massacres and genocide within the next 200 years.

AldenG
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Re: Finland vs Sweden

Post by AldenG » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:07 am

On the practical and employment side, I agree with adnan's assessment if not his personal conclusion. (I would still choose Finland.) My experience is a bit further back, but I stay connected enough to recognize that some differences have stayed constant amid the change.

Sweden has been geared to accepting and integrating immigrants for some 60+ years now, during about half of which Finland seemed to be doing all it could to keep us out. Among countries, Sweden has been exceptionally organized and effective at integrating manual-labor-class immigrants. Plus the language is immigrant-friendly. At least in my time it was a rare immigrant I ever met who didn't have a good functional level of Swedish. It seemed that even people who were "bad at languages" eventually got there, though Finns seemed to have it hardest. While there is a big difference between sophisticated and unsophisticated Swedish, the amount of detail to master for "good" Swedish is probably an order of magnitude less than for merely functional Finnish. I attended only three language class sessions but could see that they were well organized and effective for their target group. (Let's just say that I was not their target group, even then.) But in about 6-9 months I became adequately functional in Swedish through self-study -- mostly reading, web-writing, listening, and watching -- something that took several years for Finnish even with a Finnish spouse. At the end of two years in Sweden, I had (they said) really, really good Swedish, though over the next 30 years I eventually let it slip into serious decline.

I think the Swedish assimilation system got strained (or worse) with the beginning of large scale immigration from a handful of middle eastern countries from which a surprising number of immigrants arrived with a theretofore unprecedented attitude: assimilate -- what the hell are you talking about? I am only in your inferior western country until the ruthless dictator in my own ancient, noble, and culturally superior country (now having the electricity in many areas) is deposed by a new dictator from my own ethnic group. Now here is a list of my demands for the interim. Indians had never done that. Pakistanis had never done that. Greeks and Italians had definitely never done that. But these new immigrants were something else.

That's when the political assassinations disguised as simple family-related murders and dismemberments began, and the serious ghettoization by ethnic group -- the importation of tribalism, essentially.

But apart from that (...Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?), then and now, some of the cultural differences are night and day. Sweden is permeated with tabloid culture. There's nowhere to run; you cannot escape it. It is a culture of extroverts where Finland is a culture of introverts. Even most Swedish "introverts" are still extroverted by Finnish standards. In Finland, you've traditionally been largely expected to keep your opinion to yourself unless someone asks -- and generally nobody would ask. In Sweden, you are expected, perhaps required, to hold and express an opinion on most of the big issues of the day, maybe to be passionate about one or two, and it had better come from the correct spectrum of disagreement, which isn't all that wide except for skinheads and the like. Essentially all art in Sweden is political art, and publicly funded, and many people would be surprised if you think some other kind of art is possible or acceptable in today's morally urgent times. For many years, depictional art (painting, sculpture, glassware, textiles, woodcrafts) tended strongly toward cool geometric patterns in Sweden; but toward warm, irregular, naturally-inspired forms in Finland. This was no accident; it reflected something deeper in the national psyche. Even though Finns are blonder than Swedes, I have metaphorically thought of Finland as the dark-haired, introverted, pensive, and artistic sister and of Sweden as the gay, talkative, and carefree blond sister of the family -- who just happens to be an engineer, scientist, or ambassador. I've always wondered how any classical performers ever emerged from Sweden, because the amount of solitary practice required to reach musical excellence is regarded as a positively antisocial aberration worthy of intervention by teachers or social workers. In Finland it's just normal, or at least it used to be.

But Sweden is quick to research and embrace New Stuff. Finland has certainly evolved in that direction, but today it remains a mixture. New Stuff in Finland doesn't so much include hiring people with names in other languages, for instance. The Sweden I knew eagerly embraces immigrants who learn the language and appear to embrace Swedish values and the way of life. They are at least fun to have around, validating to the Swedish cultural self-perception, and quite possibly valuable assets in their differentness -- that's the attitude toward skilled immigrants that I've seen.

Some people are indifferent to such texture-of-life dimensions, and if you're one of them then by all means, look for work in Sweden and pick up and move. You'll find more opportunity of many kinds and a more international orientation in business culture, if also a certain sameness and tameness.

Swedes seem to think they are no longer very prejudiced by a Finnish accent and I'm not in a position to contradict that. But I certainly got the impression back when I spent more time visiting Sweden (after moving away) that unless you were Jörn Donner (or today maybe Esa-Pekka Salonen, unless he sticks to English in Sweden), Swedes related to Finnish-accented Swedish the way many (even well-meaning) Americans tend to react to hispanic or certain varieties of black American dialect. So your wife has that to think about and find out more about. Would she still today be taken less seriously speaking Finnish-accented Swedish? I don't know. I always thought that people speaking good Swedish with mild British, American, German, or French accents seemed to get more credibility. Maybe it was better for Finns with native Finlandssvenska or academically excellent Swedish otherwise, but even the Finland-Swedes would get compliments about how well they had learned Swedish -- with surprisingly few mistakes, all things considered :roll: . There can be a certain initial put-offness if a Finn chooses to use English instead of Swedish, but I think that historically it has often been the better choice for Finns, as it puts both parties on a level playing field.
Last edited by AldenG on Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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BigStack
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Re: Finland vs Sweden

Post by BigStack » Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:25 am

Thank you for your responses! Very interested to hear your views here. I dearly love Finland and it would be a wrench to leave but I need to earn a crust somehow. Returning to UK (I am British) would be the safe bet but after 4 years of living here I think it would be hard to adjust back to the Anglo-Saxon society from the Nordic model.

It would seem that the views presented so far support my understanding of Sweden: more opportunities economically, more embracing of foreigners etc. whilst still maintaining the aspects of Nordic life that I now take for granted e.g. work/life balance, respect for nature, well organized and safe urban living (ghettos aside). If I need to leave Finland, then I guess it's a choice between:
  • a) Returning home = great job prospects + close to my family/friends - quality of life - wife's family/friends
    b) trying my luck in Sweden in the hope that it = Finland + better job prospects + easier to integrate as a foreigner - any friends/family.

@AldenG: my wife mentioned how "back in the day" Finns were looked down upon in Sweden as hard-drinking, working-class types in a similar way, I guess, that the British regarded the Irish. She doesn't possess the cliché Finnish accent when speaking English, but not sure about when she speaks Swedish! But she has a thick skin and good sense of humour at least. In her view there are plenty of job opportunities for companies where she would require her Finnish language skills e.g. companies with regional Nordic offices in Stockholm so I think it could prove to be an asset.

Oho
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Re: Finland vs Sweden

Post by Oho » Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:01 am

BigStack wrote: It would seem that the views presented so far support my understanding of Sweden: more opportunities economically, more embracing of foreigners...
With Sverige Demokraterna heading the opinion polls it seems winds of change are blowing across the Swedish society. That said being British I'd rather think the differences you'd see in peoples behavior toward you would be generic rather than stemming from you background.


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