Asylum seeker vs working in finlanland benefits

[ahkera]

Hi

Is it true that an average family of 4 receives free 2 bed apartment (kaksio) and about 1200 cash.

I come from a non EU country, i work at low level in an IT company and earns about 1200 per month and my wife is working in cleaning sector and she earns about 400 € per month. We have 2 kids.

I pay about 750€ rent for my kaksio all inclusive. We have to pay small fee for paivakoti etc.
Plus we both are taking paid language classes as we dont qualify for integration scheme like asylum seekers.
And left with only with 500 euros per month.

My question is , Are regugees financially well off than other immigrants who are on work based migration?

[biscayne]

I assume that the salary you describe is after taxes, but is that in Finland? Those salaries seem very low for Finland. Is your wife working part time, maybe? But your salary seems incredibly low. For example, if you lived in Ireland, with a salary that low, you would be entitled to a family income supplement and rent supplement plus child benefit of 150 per child per month. In other words the State would "top up" your salary as it is lower than the cost of living. Have you spoken to the local social welfare office, or whatever it is called in Finland, or is it Kela who deals with that? It seems unusual that you would not be able to get any supplements based on such a low income. Good luck.

[Beep_Boop]

I'm not saying you're lying, but I'm saying that your story makes zero sense. So you're either intentionally modifying the facts, or you're negelecting some important pieces of information. For reference, here's a screen cap of your post in case you change it later https://i.imgur.com/D3OBYft.png

First of all, you need to make distinction:
- Asylum seekers are those who have lodged an asylum-seeking application. Those live in reception centers, a few people in each room, and they usually get 90 EUR/month or so per person for spending.
- Refugees are those asylum seekers whose applications have been processed and were found to be genuine refugees. The processing of the application usually takes anywhere between several months to a couple of years, and the higher number is more true these days. Those are entitled to almost exactly the same benefits any other non-student living in Finland gets, which are usually what you're describing.

Now, are they more well off than work-based migrants? I doubt it. I mean, at least in my case, my salary is many times more than that number you're proposing, and I'm also a work-based migrant. Usually, those who come to Finland for work, they don't come to work for 1.2k a month.

So why do I think your story is a bunch of BS? Because... Immigration Laws.
If you're a work-based migrant, then you probably have a work-based residence permit. This means that you salary will definitely not be 1200 (or 1305 before taxes in your case). Why? Because TE-palvelut will reject your application in a heartbeat because your salary is undercutting the people in the IT field, and thus Migri will reject your RP application.
Also, you say you have your wife and two kids. In order to support them, the law says that your joint income needs to be at least 2600 for your family to be granted an RP based on the one you have. This is 1000 euros more than what you're currently making.

So, which part of your story isn't true? If it's all true, then what aren't you telling us?

[ahkera]

Yes the number i have quoted are after tax

[Upphew]

The frustrating thing is that since the Syrian conflict became an unavoidable issue actually in peoples' faces, everyone's too busy looking at what someone else gets to think about what many refugees have lost. None of us here are personally diminished by refugees being given a bed. Find me one person here who has personally suffered because a young man crossed the border from Sweden yesterday. No. The fact that he has lunch today does not mean we lose ours. We don't look at our blond Finnish neighbours and think: damn, those b*stards have got access to the local library!!!!!! Because so do we. Funny how the attitude changes once you slap black hair and olive skin on them hey?

Every taxpayer is personally paying for the bed and meal of a refugee. We don't lose our lunch if they get one, we just pay it. Immigration and integration will cost about 300 000 000€ next year, or at least that is the budget. That does not include bed and lunches after the refugee has gotten RP.

I have no problem with immigrants or refugees getting access to library or swimming hall, especially if there is underutilized times and spaces.

[rinso]

What Upphew said.

Furthermore being (to) generous to those refugees means that others might come for the benefits, not because they are real refugees. When you give away free money you have to make sure you give it only to the people who need it.

An other problem with large numbers of refugees is that they will form their own communities limiting the integration process. And that in turn creates more segregation in Finland.

If you want to take good care of refugees (they morally deserve that) we should be very strict about who we let enter the country.

[Rip]

- Refugees are those asylum seekers whose applications have been processed and were found to be genuine refugees.

(Not commenting on your implicit statement that OP is a troll. Could be)
Rather few of those approved are found to qualify for refugee status. More are given "protection" on more loose grounds, and as the things currently are, of even those that are "declined" no Somalis and few Iraqis and Afghanis are actually forcibly repatriated. So even if they are found not to need protection on any grounds, they are eventually allowed to stay. Formally, initially on temporary basis, but as the laws are written, temporary becomes continuous and then permanent or citizen. They has been some talk to chenges here, but I am not holding my breath.

What is not directly an immigration issue (but becomes such when the pool of potential welfare recipients is expanded from local citizens/residents to something much bigger) is that the amount of social benefits a family with larger number of children can get is pretty big. Especially if one of the adults is one way or another a fairly hopeless case, it gets pretty hard for one adult to earn that much that the difference in the available income would be more than marginally better than what is available as social benefits without work.

[Marsh04]

Hi

Is it true that an average family of 4 receives free 2 bed apartment (kaksio) and about 1200 cash.

I come from a non EU country, i work at low level in an IT company and earns about 1200 per month and my wife is working in cleaning sector and she earns about 400 € per month. We have 2 kids.

I pay about 750€ rent for my kaksio all inclusive. We have to pay small fee for paivakoti etc.
Plus we both are taking paid language classes as we dont qualify for integration scheme like asylum seekers.
And left with only with 500 euros per month.

My question is , Are regugees financially well off than other immigrants who are on work based migration?

With this level of income you must be getting support from kela in rent and other things . And apparently your wife is exploiting the rule where you can earn 300euros and still get the full unemployment benefits. If your children are going to daycare why she can't work more ? Her income means if she is working legally she is working only 10-12h/week or around 2 hours /day . Concentrate on working harder than thinking too much what others get

[rinso]

So is our one euro and fifteen cents each week going to make us miss out on our own lunch?

It is not our lunch money that is diminishing. It is the money that's used for public facilities.
When the village school has to close because of budget cuts and the children has to travel (2x) 30 km more per day, it has consequences for everyday life. And when the school then will be used as a refugee center it really sucks.

[Rip]

Those budget cuts were in the cards well before the latest wave of asylum seekers began to arrive.

The economy was already poor, sure, but it would be rubbish to claim the hundreds of millions (if not more) on annual cost would not be away from something else.

and these peoples' kids will be wiping our backsides when we are too old to remember own names

We're about to launch into the "internal devaluation" trip that has been tried on several other European countries in the recent years. Primary expected result: mass unemployment. There will not be shortage of workers, there will shortage of money to pay them something. Having large number of immigrants from countries that have shown lousy employment prospects even in decent economic times is not going to help.

[rinso]

Those budget cuts were in the cards well before the latest wave of asylum seekers began to arrive. Schools are not closed down in order to make empty buildings for asylum seekers, and they're not closed down in order to free up cash to feed more refugees.

There are of course many factors for those budget cuts. And the new inflow of refugees will cause new budget cuts on top of the old ones. The refugees cost us money and people will feel the burden.

here's now it works: if people choose to move AWAY from the cities and services to live in a cheap house in Nowheremäki, then they cannot expect all the local services which cost a fortune to run.

The flow of people is towards the big cities, leaving the rural areas depopulated, not the other way around. The number of people looking for cheap housing is neglectable. (remember work is also moving towards the cities) And people in rural areas also pay taxes but they are not entitled to services because it is to expensive?
It is easy to cut rural services because it effects few people (voters!) but the effect for those people is quite significant.

[betelgeuse]

here's now it works: if people choose to move AWAY from the cities and services to live in a cheap house in Nowheremäki, then they cannot expect all the local services which cost a fortune to run.

The flow of people is towards the big cities, leaving the rural areas depopulated, not the other way around. The number of people looking for cheap housing is neglectable. (remember work is also moving towards the cities) And people in rural areas also pay taxes but they are not entitled to services because it is to expensive?

Most day to day services are provided by municipalities. If the municipality income tax and other municipality income (many run on state transfers) is not enough to pay for the services, then yes serious consideration needs to be given whether the service makes sense. Living by a lake with closest neighbor at least a kilometer away while having access to city standard services is impossible to finance.

It is easy to cut rural services because it effects few people (voters!) but the effect for those people is quite significant.

If the rural people have their own municipality, then the few people would be in the same boat as everyone else in the municipality.

[rinso]

Living by a lake with closest neighbor at least a kilometer away while having access to city standard services is impossible to finance.

Nowadays it is already impossible to find most services within 20 - 30 km.

If the rural people have their own municipality, then the few people would be in the same boat as everyone else in the municipality.

I don't really understand what you try to say.
When I say rural I don't just mean an isolated farm at a lakeside. To me rural means also smaller municipalities some distance away from a major city. The effects I'm talking about already happen in municipalities of 5 - 10 k. And when those municipalities are forced to merge with a bigger city the negative effects often intensify.

[Upphew]

Every taxpayer is personally paying for the bed and meal of a refugee. We don't lose our lunch if they get one, we just pay it. Immigration and integration will cost about 300 000 000€ next year, or at least that is the budget. That does not include bed and lunches after the refugee has gotten RP.

I have no problem with immigrants or refugees getting access to library or swimming hall, especially if there is underutilized times and spaces.

So is our one euro and fifteen cents each week going to make us miss out on our own lunch? No. Most of us spend more than that on a daily cappuccino or an online newspaper subscription. Granted we are paying for it all, but it's not the economic disaster the politicians would have us believe - remember, they are trying to buy votes by getting people hyped up and angry. And these peoples' kids will be wiping our backsides when we are too old to remember own names - we are not really facing how top-heavy our population distribution is, we actually NEED immigrants now so that they have time to immigrate or reproduce and create the native-Finnish speaking kids to support the baby boomers and gen X'ers.

I have personally observed that the refugees appreciate the opportunity more than the "marriage" migrants. Me included. There's a very clear line in the Finnish courses that runs pretty much according to whether they're from a western country or not, without many exceptions. The refugees and poorer-nation people don't score the best Finnish levels, but they sure as heck try harder to learn and have aspirations for future careers here. Surely that work ethic is a good investment of Finnish money, when it comes to training tomorrow's workforce?

Is 1,15€ a lot? No. In a year? No. Can I come and take a coin from you without asking? With this recent flood of asylum seekers (some of who are waiting for the return trip to go back home to drive their 2013 Mustang... I'm "slightly" envious) I'm seeing them more and more as people who come and take money from me without asking than people in need of safe place to live. They might want better living, but then they shouldn't come as asylum seekers.

I don't expect zero unemployment rate, but I expect the rate be lower than what it is now, before we start to bring in more mouths to feed.

I also think that many times refugees are more appreciative and are more motivated to integrate here. I think we should just put some more motivation to the integration process.

edit. forgot to add source for the Mustang case: http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2015092 ... 0_uu.shtml

[Karhunkoski]

here's now it works: if people choose to move AWAY from the cities and services to live in a cheap house in Nowheremäki, then they cannot expect all the local services which cost a fortune to run.

Most movement is FROM the countryside into the cities. Most of the people living out in the countryside are actually from there.