Customs - BIG change!!!

[harryc]

If shipments from outside the EU incur a customs charge of 5€ you now have to clear them. (it used to be 10€)

That means if you take 36€ of peanuts from outside the EU you must go to the airport or Vuosaari and pay €5.10 ALV plus any actual duty.

You don't want to do that? OK - turn it over to Posti or DHL to do the clearance and you will pay 30€ more for their services.

I picked something where the ALV is 14% - if it would a couple of USB sticks - the ALV is 24% and the value would only need to be 22€.

In fact, the notices you get with the original document that comes in the post says that anything over 22€ has to be processed.

++

Supreme stupidity - because the administration of these clerances is costing the government (and post) anywhere between 50 and 100€

[Upphew]

If shipments from outside the EU incur a customs charge of 5€ you now have to clear them. (it used to be 10€)

That means if you take 36€ of peanuts from outside the EU you must go to the airport or Vuosaari and pay €5.10 ALV plus any actual duty.

You don't want to do that? OK - turn it over to Posti or DHL to do the clearance and you will pay 30€ more for their services.

I picked something where the ALV is 14% - if it would a couple of USB sticks - the ALV is 24% and the value would only need to be 22€.

In fact, the notices you get with the original document that comes in the post says that anything over 22€ has to be processed.

++

Supreme stupidity - because the administration of these clerances is costing the government (and post) anywhere between 50 and 100€

Happened 1.1.2013: http://www.tulli.fi/fi/tiedotteet/asiak ... l?bc=11399
Don't want to pay to posti or dhl and dont want to go airport or vuosaari? Do it online: https://asiointi.tulli.fi/nettituonti/mainpage.html

[riku2]

Don't want to pay to posti or dhl and dont want to go airport or vuosaari? Do it online: https://asiointi.tulli.fi/nettituonti/mainpage.html

One problem with the online service is that you get a notification that there is a parcel to be cleared but you are only told who has sent it (eg amazon.com). If you have ordered two packages then if they are from the same sender you don't know which package they are asking you to clear though customs!

[Beep_Boop]

I'm pretty sure this is quite old news.

[harryc]

I'm pretty sure this is quite old news.

So don't read it !

In actual fact I thought I recall several posts in last year or so which mentioned the 'old' 10€ limit.

In any case, I did clear one small packet - and all along the line, people at post and customs said the regulation was absolutely ridiculous. It was causing costs and problems all along the line. People at customs were particularly vocal - and all assured that collecting these small amonts was a FAR more expensive procedure than the revenue.

[Rosamunda]

Far more expensive in what way? All those people are working for Tuuli and Vero anyway - it just gives them more paperwork and more hassle. The incremental cost of changing the threshold was probably zero. And even if it does create more work... that means more jobs. Win win. There are so many people unemployed - one way of getting them into work is to create a ton of bureaucracy that is labour-intensive
Same scenario in Evira... Lots of people doing really important law enforcement there too.

[harryc]

And one then wonders why national debts are going up - and the BMW drivers get everyone else to pay.

Thanks - but I believe in strong government services - health, education, mass transport - and progressive taxation and efficiency. No phony employment programs.

Customs and tax collections should be set so that revenue equals cost - and based on rational employment systems. (Customs people said, btw, that they are overworked with these ridiclulous 5€ charges).

[FinnGuyHelsinki]

Supreme stupidity - because the administration of these clerances is costing the government (and post) anywhere between 50 and 100€

Any reference to those figures? Putting together the possibility of custom declaration online and that to a certain degree it will turn people to buy from within EU instead (often it's no longer the cheapest to buy music or books in English from the US), it may very well be that it was calculated to be profitable overall. Whether it actually has been, I don't know, but often the total impact is not so straightforward to calculate.

[Piet]

I buy a lot of stuff (components) in china, for example 100 bright cool white leds for 1,65€ including shipping ! This has luckily never been taxed due to the low value, but yes indeed, when the TAX law changed and the minimum payable amount was lowered to 5€, I have always made sure I split my orders so the package value is never more than 20€, so sometimes I have to order 3 times the same things, just because I need a bigger quantity.

If you think about that, it is a very environmental unfriendly TAX change, in my example it will be now 3 times paper and plastic to pack the items, 3 times a transport that costs fuel, 3 times electricity / manpower needed to order and process it before shipping, etc.etc.

The only reason for doing this (that I can think of now) is to prevent people to buy abroad and spend their money in Finland (like the car tax scheme).

As said before (in another topic) most countries could learn from how TAX office and Tulli work in Finland (well the law making that is of course).

[harryc]

As said before (in another topic) most countries could learn from how TAX office and Tulli work in Finland (well the law making that is of course).

The 5€ 'law' was mandated by Brussels and not a brilliant - 'promote the local economy' - stroke by some Finn.

The 50-100€ cost

A number of 40-80€ was told to me by an upper level customs official some 5 years ago when they told me that very often shipments over the 10€ limit often go through because someone is using talonpojan järki at the 'filter' level.

It's not hard to believe - the fellow at airport took about 15 minutes to play with his computer, fill forms and interview me. There was also some 10 minutes on phone with 2 others at post and customs. Someone had to put my package on a 'registration number' basis - get the notice to me. I saw on net there were then some 3 steps to 'follow' the package before customs - and then several more after it was 'cleared' to get it back into the delivery system. Also the approx 10 min by a post 'chat' person researching why 3 days had gone by AFTER clearance and it still was not in 'delivery.' And then there has to be a whole accounting system to record and follow the 5€ payment. (most corporations have already decided it is a losing proposition to invoice 5€ and drop such a charge whenever possible). It's a fact that actual salaries must be multiplied by 3-4x to come close to real costs - social and administrative costs, upkeep of an organization - costs of a physical place for people to work, etc. I have no trouble believing that 5 year old estimate of 40-80 - and I am sure that number would now be higher but let it be 40-80€ still and it remains a significant loss for post and customs - 5€ covers pretty much NOTHING. And that is without the emotional aspect of everyone collecting the 5€ along the way thinking the process was ridiculous - it surely affects work morale when empployees don't see any sense in what they are doing. (In the US they go 'postal' )

[Rosamunda]

But.... the costs you are talking about are pretty much fixed: Whether the shipment in question has a value of 5€ or 50€ does not affect the cost of administering the VAT. However, the extra VAT/duty collected is incremental. So, unless Tulli and Vero really had to hire extra people to do the work, I don't buy the "it isn't cost effective" argument.

As you say, the decision was made to influence behaviour and encourage people to buy locally (ie inside the EU). In this respect, your "this isn't environmentally friendly" diatribe is absurd. It is your own decision to source your purchases independently from China (and drive to the airport on a regular basis to pick them up) which is damaging the environment... not Vero's decision to tax them.

If you are buying thousands of LED lamps I guess you are somehow buying them for commercial reasons in which case you really don't care whether there is VAT on them or not since you can claim it back (assuming you are VAT registered...)

Tax is one way of creating a sustainable economy if it encourages manufacturers to produce locally and consumers to buy locally. Buying cheap more often than not implies that someone, somewhere is being exploited.

[harryc]

So, unless Tulli and Vero really had to hire extra people to do the work

Sorry - but there is a real personnel problem - I don't know how many new people are being hired but I know that each and every step of the process of paying €5.20 VAT found employees that were disgusted and overworked - and TOLD SO! At the airpport there were 5-6 people waiting to get their 15-20 mins of joy with an 'offivial.' The chat woman was away for about 15 mins trying to trace the package. She said the process of transfer from customs to post was usually jammed up and I had to be patient.

Encouragement of obscene pricing in Finland so that 'johtajas' can buy their BMWs and hope those purchases trickle down to Lieksa, Kallio and Jakomäki is, to me, not the way to go.

Sure - one can think it is 'cost effective' when you 'consume' your employees and totally annoy your citizens. The solution in the US has been called 'going postal' as I said. So this is all acceptable? Sorry - no. If Finnish companies would bring their greedy prices into gear with the rest of the world on so many products people wouldn't be going to Timbukto to get the simplest stuff.

As you say, the decision was made to influence behaviour and encourage people to buy locally (ie inside the EU)

I never said that - and I seriously doubt there was anyone in Brussels with that thought in mind.

your "this isn't environmentally friendly" diatribe is absurd.

I, for one, made no referenes to the environment! - but I would say that very often the superficial analysis has been totally erroneous in many cases - eg - the ethanol nonsense is an environmental fiasco. I really don't know the environmental effects of the 5€ tax thing is - but I would caution about any rush to judgment on what the impacts would be.

[Upphew]

If Finnish companies would bring their greedy prices into gear with the rest of the world on so many products people wouldn't be going to Timbukto to get the simplest stuff.

If rest of the world would be nice and pay the 24% VAT when sending stuff to you... there would be no problem?

[harryc]

harryc wrote:
If Finnish companies would bring their greedy prices into gear with the rest of the world on so many products people wouldn't be going to Timbukto to get the simplest stuff.

If rest of the world would be nice and pay the 24% VAT when sending stuff to you... there would be no problem?

Well - the stuff I went out to the airport for cost a bit under 40 euro - for which I paid 5+ VAT (14%). The same - a simple chemical - would have cost 180 here. So the VAT is an insignificant amount compared to the price gouging in Finland.

[Upphew]

harryc wrote:
If Finnish companies would bring their greedy prices into gear with the rest of the world on so many products people wouldn't be going to Timbukto to get the simplest stuff.

If rest of the world would be nice and pay the 24% VAT when sending stuff to you... there would be no problem?

Well - the stuff I went out to the airport for cost a bit under 40 euro - for which I paid 5+ VAT (14%). The same - a simple chemical - would have cost 180 here. So the VAT is an insignificant amount compared to the price gouging in Finland.

You see price gouging, someone else would see business opportunity.