Non-EU/EEC Students

harryc · Post by **harryc** » Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:09 am

Has anyone got a handle on how many non-EU/EEC students are in Finland? Any idea how many students can earn degrees without knowing ANY Finnish?

I've just been wondering what the situation is with respect to 'free tuition' being stopped for non-EU/EEC students.

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Beep_Boop · Post by **Beep_Boop** » Sat Dec 26, 2015 12:44 pm

In 2014, 11862 students from outside Europe. I can't find precise numbers on "non-EU/EEC", but the "outside Europe" part should be an indication.
Also, "knowing ANY Finnish" is not a requirement to earn a degree from a program offered in English in Finland.

Source: http://www.cimo.fi/instancedata/prime_p ... s_2014.pdf

harryc · Post by **harryc** » Sat Dec 26, 2015 1:48 pm

Also, "knowing ANY Finnish" is not a requirement to earn a degree from a program offered in English in Finland.

Sorry if my question might have been misunderstood. I was only thinking of how many students might receive a degree (annually) with the curriculum being only in English? (I assume there are few courses given where the teaching is in French, German, Spanish and/or Russian - other than courses for those studying those languages).

Beep_Boop · Post by **Beep_Boop** » Sat Dec 26, 2015 2:00 pm

harryc wrote:Sorry if my question might have been misunderstood. I was only thinking of how many students might receive a degree (annually) with the curriculum being only in English?

According to the public stats in the past couple of years, around 20k foreign students annually in total. It's reasonable to assume that the vast, vast majority study in English programmes.

Rosamunda · Post by **Rosamunda** » Sat Dec 26, 2015 3:47 pm

I imagine those CIMO numbers include all exchange students and foreign PhD students etc

Much more detail here on Universities and UAS. Also includes data on Finnish students studying abroad.
http://www.cimo.fi/services/statistics/ ... f_students
http://www.cimo.fi/services/statistics_ ... stitutions

http://www.cimo.fi/instancedata/prime_p ... B_2015.pdf

goo · Post by **goo** » Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:47 pm

Of the foreign degree students in 2014, 77 % (15 330) were from outside the EU/EEA area. In universities of applied science, there were 9 553 foreign students, of which 81 % (7 763) were from outside the EU/EEA area. Of the 10 327 foreign university students, 73 % (7 567) were from outside the EU/EEA area. In universities of applied science, there were 2 310 new foreign students in 2014, of which 1 889 were from outside the EU/EEA area. In universities, there were 1 976 new students in 2014 (includes only bachelor/master programs), of which 1 781 were from outside the EU/EEA area.

Thew above is loosely translated from HE 77/2014. This is the document submitted by the government to the parliament about the proposed (and now passed) tuition fee law. At least they have the facts in order.

harryc · Post by **harryc** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:21 am

From those numbers it sounds like some sensible idea to require tuition from non-EEC/EEC students and then offer scholarships for those in genuine need.

Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Rosamunda · Post by **Rosamunda** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:18 pm

harryc · Post by **harryc** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:36 pm

Why what?

If I assume that you mean why charge tuition for those students then I should simply point to all the cuts now going on that are wrecking the economics of low-income Finns - pension cuts, KELA subsidies, -- the list goes on and on. Low-income people are getting kicked by the very non-progressive YLE 'communications tax' - please don't refer to it not being charged to people making less than 7000€ a year - a real joke - who could come close to living on 20€ a day total costs?

Why should well-off non-EU etc. students be getting a free ride here? To me that is abuse!

On top of that Finland is one of the few countries that wasn't charging.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... most-free/

I think it should be ME saying WHY!!

All fine if there's more money than what countries now knowing what to do with - but why should GM's CEO's child be able to suck off the Finnish system?

So -- WHY?

riku2 · Post by **riku2** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:24 pm

i never really understood why Finnish tax payers should pay for the education of people from outside the EU/EEA. Somebody explained to me it was a form of "foreign aid" really and it's also possible that some of those educated might stay in Finland.

I would cut this free ride for foreigners immediately. When I went to university in the UK they charged fees for non EU/EEA students and the government had to limit the % of this kind of foreigners on each course, since otherwise the universities would have stuffed their courses with students from around the world who were happy to pay for a UK university education.

harryc · Post by **harryc** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:36 pm

it was a form of "foreign aid"

For the child of GM's CEO in the USA? Great!

Beep_Boop · Post by **Beep_Boop** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:33 pm

roger_roger wrote:ha ha GM's CEO's children would come to Finland because of Free Education

The world-class education that you'd never find in Harvard, Cambridge, Oxford, etc.

Querfeldein · Post by **Querfeldein** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:16 pm

Rather than looking only at the cost of educating these foreign students, it would be more sensible to look at their overall economic impact.

If you could attract the same number of overseas students to Finnish universities whilst charging them tuition fees, then it would probably be a good move. However, driving away qualified overseas students would probably neither benefit Finnish universities (imagine, say, the University of Helsinki without its international staff and students), nor the Finnish economy.

Attracting qualified, university-bound immigrants to your country is surely a net economic benefit - their entire upbringing, primary and secondary education was paid for by another country, and you get them right when they will become their most productive (and least costly for healthcare etc.). Perhaps an ideal system for Finland would require fees from only those international students who leave Finland within a certain period after graduation, and treat those who stay to work in Finland for a certain number of years the same as domestic students. Perhaps such a system could even be set up so as to incentivise universities to design their courses and select and educate their students with the aim of giving them the best chance of finding employment in Finland after graduation...

riku2 · Post by **riku2** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:27 pm

roger_roger wrote:If Finn wants to go to study in UK they do have to pay the astronomical money as tuition fees, why Brits should get free education here?

Finns studying in the UK are charged the same as UK residents studying in the UK. eg for Oxford: http://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergra ... tion-fees#. The UK/EU fee is 9000 pounds/year, from outside the EU approx 4x that.

This system seems quite sensible. The university charges home country/EU students the same price. Would you like oxford to charge based on the price where the student comes from?
Brits don't get a free ride at oxford and pay the same as a Finn would.

Rosamunda · Post by **Rosamunda** » Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:19 am

roger_roger wrote:
harryc wrote:From those numbers it sounds like some sensible idea to require tuition from non-EEC/EEC students and then offer scholarships for those in genuine need.

Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
You didn't understand the whole rule, it only applies to the new-comers which is roughly 1100 per year, the ones who are from outside EU/EEC but are residing here for more than 3 years are counted as EU resident and do not have to pay.

In whole scale the money education institutes would receive by charging tuition fees for non-EU/EEA is peanuts. 1500 x 1500 (lets assume would come next year) = 2250000 i.e. roughly 2.25 million

@roger_roger
I think you didn't understand....

The new ruling stipulates that Universities must charge a minimum of €1500 p.a.: http://yle.fi/uutiset/foreign_students_ ... nd/8530330

but at least one university has already announced that it will be charging €10,000:
http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/a1450767536520

...so not really peanuts. As far as I know, none of the other Unis have actually confirmed how much they will be charging. And I don't understand what you mean about non-EU students being counted as EU residents because they are here for more than three years. Don't think so.

I can understand why some people think this is a good idea but I'm with Querfeldein on this one. Foreign students are net contributors to Finnish universities in many ways (and not just financial, but that too). Finland has little to offer foreign students with its high cost of living, and poor prospects in terms of workplace experience (ie for the vocational universities which require 100 days on-the-job experience) and other issues such as the less than welcoming environment and even the inadequate levels of English language.

Paying fees is a long term commitment as studies can last up to 5 years or even more. This means that the foreign students are at the mercy of volatile exchange rates. In the last couple of years the number of Russian students in the new in-takes has fallen drastically (without tuition fees) simply because the cost of living has DOUBLED for them since the ruble plunged.

Finnish universities have already started laying off staff in large numbers and a dramatic fall in the number of foreign students could exacerbate the situation, possibly causing whole faculties to close.

One issue which does bug me (as a taxpayer) is why we allow Finnish students who have received their whole education for free move abroad as soon as they graduate. The UK (Australia, Canada, NZ) is effectively getting doctors and nurses for free without having to educate and train them. Meanwhile, in Finland, we have a health service which relies more and more on immigrant doctors and nurses (who probably need extra training) and private-sector service providers.

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